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I'm in the local big-box sporting goods store the other day looking over what they have to offer (you know, to see if there's anything I can't live without), and I ask the salesman if I can take a look at one of their 1911s. I had spoken with this gentleman a few times, and had come to the conclusion that he was a bit of a blowhard know-it-all, but well-intentioned and an overall good guy. This time, he got me a little concerned. The 1911 was the Taurus clone, and while handling it, I noticed that the safety was a little too loose for my liking. If I'm going to have a pistol with a manual safety, I want it to be very similar to a double-action trigger...if it comes off, I want to make sure that I meant for it to come off (especially on a 1911). I explained what I didn't like to the salesman, and he proceeds to tell me that he wouldn't carry it with the safety on because it gives "young guys like me too much of a head start" (I'm 36). I tried explaining to him that the 1911 is a single-action pistol, and that the thumb safety is there for that very reason. He basically blew me off...apparently this "young guy" wasn't going to tell him anything. So, here's my dilemma: I know that I would never carry a 1911 without the safety fully engaged, but what about someone who doesn't know anything about them and assumes this guy knows his stuff? I'm not looking to get the guy fired...like I said, he's basically a good fellow, but I've already tried to explain to him why carrying a 1911 with the safety off is a really bad idea, and he wouldn't hear any of it. Obviously the thing to do is to have a little chat with the store manager to suggest to him that the salesman educate himself on the operation of the pistols he's selling before he gets someone killed...just wondering if anybody has any other recommendations that might work better?
 

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It seems he is a bit set in his ways, as long as he isn't attempting to get everyone in the store to subscribe to the "crazy gun store guy's theory of 1911s", its his funeral so to speak.

Everyone in their right mind knows that carrying a 1911 condition 1 with the thumb safety off is madness. The poor sap is going to end up shooting himself in the butt, or worse.
 

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The firearm comes with an instruction manual,and people are responsible to educate themselves about their firearms,But I gotta agree I see a lot of people trying to sell guns they know absolutely nothing about,usually minimum wage employees.I would let the manager know that his employee is giving out dangerous advice on how to carry a firearm that could result in them getting sued
 

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uh, I admit I some times I am a smartass, and ... uh, I can't some times pass up an opportunity to have a little fun...... soooooooooo

I may have been asking him different questions like ;
How many times you shot yourself so far ?
Does your wife keep your life insurance paid up ?
Do you have good liability insurance so when someone follows your advice and then you get sued for such stupidity they can collect ?
Do you have 'any' return customers with that kind of advice ?
How many people have you advised that ended up in the hospital ?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
uh, I admit I some times I am a smartass, and ... uh, I can't some times pass up an opportunity to have a little fun...... soooooooooo

I may have been asking him different questions like ;
How many times you shot yourself so far ?
Does your wife keep your life insurance paid up ?
Do you have good liability insurance so when someone follows your advice and then you get sued for such stupidity they can collect ?
Do you have 'any' return customers with that kind of advice ?
How many people have you advised that ended up in the hospital ?
I won't lie...the thought crossed my mind as well.
 

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No Insurance $ for U

Insurance would NOT pay? Stupidity is a PREEXISITING condition! :gah:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The firearm comes with an instruction manual,and people are responsible to educate themselves about their firearms,But I gotta agree I see a lot of people trying to sell guns they know absolutely nothing about,usually minimum wage employees.I would let the manager know that his employee is giving out dangerous advice on how to carry a firearm that could result in them getting sued
I agree that it should be the responsibility of gun owners to educate themselves and not rely solely on what they've been told, but there's way too many people out there who haven't ever bothered to read a manual for anything, and aren't about to start. And you know there are ambulance chasers out there just drooling for an opportunity to represent some poor innocent victim that relied on the knowledge of the salesman and ended up shooting themselves. For that matter, there's probably more than a few people out there willing to put a .45 through their foot just for the opportunity to milk a healthy lawsuit out of the deal.
 

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YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!

I wouldn't waste my time trying to educate the bugger.

I would however have a nice friendly chat with the Manager, or send a letter to corporate, to the chief "bobblehead" of that department, outlining the situation and, "As I'm sure you are aware, the 1911 and it's clone type pistols, which your company sells, were designed by John Moses Browning to be carried with the safety engaged. The advice being given by your salesman places your company in a bad liability situation that I would hate to see happen if someone were to follow your salesman's advice."

You have now made Stupid somebody else's problem and the document can become legal evidence of prior knowledge if they disregard your letter. In short, you have made them aware of a problem. If they choose to do nothing about it, that's their problem.

There is a reason I used the word YOUR a lot. I'm in hopes that it will "hit home" so to speak, and wake them up to a problem they have.

Biker
 

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YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!

I wouldn't waste my time trying to educate the bugger.

I would however have a nice friendly chat with the Manager, or send a letter to corporate, to the chief "bobblehead" of that department, outlining the situation and, "As I'm sure you are aware, the 1911 and it's clone type pistols, which your company sells, were designed by John Moses Browning to be carried with the safety engaged. The advice being given by your salesman places your company in a bad liability situation that I would hate to see happen if someone were to follow your salesman's advice."

You have now made Stupid somebody else's problem and the document can become legal evidence of prior knowledge if they disregard your letter. In short, you have made them aware of a problem. If they choose to do nothing about it, that's their problem.

There is a reason I used the word YOUR a lot. I'm in hopes that it will "hit home" so to speak, and wake them up to a problem they have.

Biker
+1:yup:
 

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Concur with above comments.

I must admit that with the exception of two local shops - in general, gun shops and public shooting ranges make me edgy. I see stoopid stuff like this coming from the 'experts' all the time. Everything from having the muzzle of the gun pointed at my face while he demonstrates his knowledge of the weapon, to being handed an AK when I asked to see the Sig 556 next to it (and no he didn't mis-understand me - he argued that it was AR!). 'Some very scary folks behind those counter tops!
 

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I don't own a 1911 and I don't know much about them...

Still, I've read online numerous times that 1911 owners keep them "cocked and locked." If that guy hasn't seen that, you've got to wonder why.

I am baffled by what some gun store clerks do not know.
 

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Insurance would NOT pay? Stupidity is a PREEXISITING condition! :gah:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Sounds like this "old guy" is the ultimate authority on 1911's. I would just bring in a 1911 instruction manual with a sticky note on it "Attention Mr. X" and just lay it on the counter and walk away. He'll get the hint.
 

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Your post is very interesting, because while I was in the Fort Myers area I walked into the Bass Pro there and actually looked at a Taurus 1911, and wouldn't you know, the thumb safety completely fell out while I was looking at it.

I advised the salesman to not display that one if he intended to sell any of them.

Funny, maybe the Taurus has an issue with the safety.
 

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I'm certainly FAR from being any sort of expert, but here's my take. Yes, he opened himself and the store up for liability, however, I'm not sure what the issue is if he chooses to carry with the safety disengaged. As long as his brain is engaged I don't care one way or another. Myself, I train with the safety on.

But lets think about it for a minute. Is the pistol going to go off all by itself? Probably not. It requires the manual manipulation by the operator. I'm sure we all agree on that point. So, that said, what's wrong with him carrying without the safety(assuming he's using a holster of course):rolleyes:.

I know I've read multiple instances where even our long time and well respected members have admitted to FAILING to disengage a 1911 safety even in the comfort of a training session, let alone real life... I KNOW I've personally done so myself. I've failed to disengage the safety before in training and it got me simulatedly dead.

Apparently this guy did the math and decided it was better for him to leave the safety off... Whether that is good or bad remains to be seen. Until I actually see legitimate evidence to the contrary, I can't fault him on his own method of carry, only on the liability he may have opened up both himself and the store to by dispensing his opinion to customers.
 

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Maybe he was thinking that the 'young guys' ought to carry in condition 3, no round, therefore no safety engaged?
 

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I'm certainly FAR from being any sort of expert, but here's my take. Yes, he opened himself and the store up for liability, however, I'm not sure what the issue is if he chooses to carry with the safety disengaged. As long as his brain is engaged I don't care one way or another. Myself, I train with the safety on.

But lets think about it for a minute. Is the pistol going to go off all by itself? Probably not. It requires the manual manipulation by the operator. I'm sure we all agree on that point. So, that said, what's wrong with him carrying without the safety(assuming he's using a holster of course):rolleyes:.

I know I've read multiple instances where even our long time and well respected members have admitted to FAILING to disengage a 1911 safety even in the comfort of a training session, let alone real life... I KNOW I've personally done so myself. I've failed to disengage the safety before in training and it got me simulatedly dead.

Apparently this guy did the math and decided it was better for him to leave the safety off... Whether that is good or bad remains to be seen. Until I actually see legitimate evidence to the contrary, I can't fault him on his own method of carry, only on the liability he may have opened up both himself and the store to by dispensing his opinion to customers.
The only answer I could give to this is 4 1/2 lb trigger pull.

If one carries a 1911 in condition 1 without the safety on then one deserves the bullet he will eventually get.
 

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The only answer I could give to this is 4 1/2 lb trigger pull.

If one carries a 1911 in condition 1 without the safety on then one deserves the bullet he will eventually get.
I guess I'm just trying to see the other side of the coin. I carry and train safety on, but can't fault anyone otherwise unless they're carrying "mexican" where they're going to have a high probability of getting clothing or any other myriad of items stuck in the trigger guard.

Remind me again how even a light 4 1/2lb trigger gets pulled? Oh yeah...the operator:rolleyes:. With a quality holster, even if you jump up and down and do somersaults, that 4.5lb trigger isn't going to go boom. The way I see it, it should always boil down to the 4 basic rules and training. Folks tend to perform how they train. If you train poorly(usually violating some form of the "rules") you're going to perform poorly and most likely someone is going to die as a result. That's safety on or not.

The only thing I can think of other than direct booger hook pressure is MAYBE catching clothing in the trigger guard while reholstering after an incident...or the perfect storm of failures where the sear actually manages to dislodge from the notch due to some unforseen mechanical failure?

I've noticed a couple of times while carry in the past during periods of high activity that my clothing or body or something has actually managed to push on the thumb safety and snapped it off:redface:(open top, IWB holster). Not a regular occurrence but it has happened. Realize though, that this discovery wasn't until at least half a day later(disarming for the night) and I was still standing there...with no boom to speak of...:blink: I managed to go all day without a 1911 automagically going boom all by itself.:rolleyes:

I can't help but play the devils advocate every now and then...:theyareontome:
 

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C&L is the right way, but didn't Browning initially design the 1911 with no thumb safety? I believe the Government MADE him put one on. Not sure which condition he intended it to be carried though without a safety. No round in chamber? Round in, hammer down?
 
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