Dealing with a hypothetical accusation.

4399 Views 47 Replies 30 Participants Last post by 91wm6, Mar 25, 2013

darebear

Discussion Starter · Mar 17, 2013

How would law enforcement deal with a permit holder being falsely accused of making a threat? Lets just say hypothetically you got into a confrontation with someone... or maybe you didn't... and this person called the police and falsely accused you of making a threat, all the while you are carrying a gun. Now this person may or may not know that you have a gun. But at that point what happens when your pissed off neighbor, crazed girlfriend, or the road rage guy yelling at you for stealing his parking spot falsely accuses you of a threat and you have to explain to the responding police officer that you are carrying a gun? I understand that a person can sue with a deformation suit for any slander or libel but that is a long and arduous process. What would a police officer do if you are carrying or even have guns in your home and someone falsely accuses you of a threat?

If you are in this hypothetical situation would you explain to a officer (depending upon the accusation) that you own and/or carrying a gun legally?

1 - 20 of 48 Posts

Cbuffett556

· #2 · Mar 17, 2013

Any time I have an interaction with an LEO I'm going to tell him I am armed and produce my permit.

In your hypothetical situation I would calmly explain the entire situation to the officer and hopefully there were witnesses who can back your story up.

The fact that you have a permit shows him you're a good guy and you obey the law. Hopefully he will realize this and act accordingly.

Given the nature of the call/accusations I would also be perfectly ok with him disarming me until he figured everything out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk, please excuse typos.

Reactions: 1

OldVet

· #3 · Mar 17, 2013

On the flip side, if the BG says you had a concealed gun, the officer may assume you pulled it out or the guy wouldn't know. He says you pulled a gun; you have a gun; therefore the officer may well feel you did pull the gun.

Carrying a firearm has always been, and will always be, a two-edged sword.

Reactions: 1

darebear

Discussion Starter · #4 · Mar 17, 2013

Cbuffett556 said:
Any time I have an interaction with an LEO I'm going to tell him I am armed and produce my permit.

In your hypothetical situation I would calmly explain the entire situation to the officer and hopefully there were witnesses who can back your story up.

The fact that you have a permit shows him you're a good guy and you obey the law. Hopefully he will realize this and act accordingly.

Given the nature of the call/accusations I would also be perfectly ok with him disarming me until he figured everything out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk, please excuse typos.

Yea, I would do the same. Probably wouldn't offer to disarm myself though, but if he asked me to I would. I don't know if the burden of proof would lie on the person accused or the person doing the accusing.

Cbuffett556

· #5 · Mar 17, 2013

darebear said:
Yea, I would do the same. Probably wouldn't offer to disarm myself though, but if he asked me to I would. I don't know if the burden of proof would lie on the person accused or the person doing the accusing.

I didn't mean it to seem like I would offer to disarm but what I mean was that if he requested it I would not be offended.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk, please excuse typos.

Cbuffett556

· #6 · Mar 17, 2013

OldVet said:
On the flip side, if the BG says you had a concealed gun, the officer may assume you pulled it out or the guy wouldn't know. He says you pulled a gun; you have a gun; therefore the officer may well feel you did pull the gun.

Carrying a firearm has always been, and will always be, a two-edged sword.

I think this is where one of those little audio recorders always recording in your pocket would come in real handy. I personally don't see the need for one but this is one case where it would be very helpful.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk, please excuse typos.

Reactions: 1

bombthrower77

· #7 · Mar 17, 2013

The burden of proof would be on the accuser. Now if it were a guy and his two friends, you might be screwed.

Snub44

· #8 · Mar 17, 2013

...about all you could do to "prove" you didn't pull it is get him to describe it to the officer before he disarms you...and that's a gamble...I've go a slight edge because I'm lefty...it's still a crap shoot...just like getting up in the mornin'...

yz9890

· #9 · Mar 17, 2013

"no I didn't. any more questions will need to go through my attorney."

Reactions: 4

ccw9mm

· #10 · Mar 17, 2013 (Edited)

Well, in an ideal world, proof would be required for anything beyond an investigation into the accusations to stick, instead of mere claims and circumstances.

The burden of proof is on the accuser, of course. But we're dealing with arms, and altogether too many (in LE as well) are knee-jerk when it comes to treatment of such "gun-related" situations. Many folks have been face-planted and arrested for having such claims being made, having such claimants be the first to call the police in a tizzy, and where upstanding people haven't had the means proving the falsity of the bogus claims.

IMO, a few elements can help each of us guard against such things:

Live an upstanding life, without drama, being known as an upstanding person.
Avoid confrontations and, just as importantly, be seen to be avoiding them if they arise.
Become a "student" of situations, being aware of details, what's said, what evidence exists, etc.
Ensure wherever possible you've got documented proof of the reality (ie, recorder, witnesses, folks with you who know the truth).
If witnesses are available or can quickly be tracked down, get 'em before they "spoil" (disappear).
Have had prior discussions with a competent self-defense attorney who can advise you on dealing with self-defense situations, including situations involving defense against spurious claims.

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Reactions: 2

Nmuskier

· #11 · Mar 17, 2013

yz9890 said:
"no I didn't. any more questions will need to go through my attorney."

^^^
Yup. Shut up, call a lawyer, and ask for proof. Any "defending" you do on the spot can be used against you. Let the accuser do all the talking, make all the contradictions, and exaggerate the story.

tacman605

· #12 · Mar 17, 2013

Depending on the nature of this threat, in most places, but I will stick to Arkansas this would be considered a misdemeanor. Since it is a misdemeanor the officer would take a report and advise the complainant of the affidavit and warrant procedure. An officer cannot make an arrest for a misdemeanor not committed in his presence unless there is evidence of physical injury.

It all comes down to a he said, she said type situation.

Crowman

· #13 · Mar 17, 2013

darebear said:
But at that point what happens when your pissed off neighbor, crazed girlfriend, or the road rage guy yelling at you for stealing his parking spot falsely accuses you of a threat and you have to explain to the responding police officer that you are carrying a gun?

If you are in this hypothetical situation would you explain to a officer (depending upon the accusation) that you own and/or carrying a gun legally?

No different than trying to explain anytime one is accused of doing something they did not do........ If it is one on one then it becomes who is most believable....

nontechguy

· #14 · Mar 17, 2013

I read about a guy who had some idiot road rager call the cops and say he waved a gun at him.
Cop pulled the guy over and frisked him and searched his car. He wasn't armed at the time. Don't know if they ever went after the idiot to press charges for a false report or not. A little scary to think how it might have played out if he had been armed.
Like others have said: keep your cool. You never know what kind of nuts are out there.

aogiss

· #15 · Mar 17, 2013

yz9890 said:
"no I didn't. any more questions will need to go through my attorney."

yz9890 said everthing anyone ever needs to know.

It would be wise for everyone to watch this discussion, linked below, between a lawyer, also a law professor, and police investigator, to learn why both emphatically state that talking to the police following any incident is the most foolish thing you could do.

Police are not the bad guys, it is just the way our legal system works that can turn your words against you in the worst kind of way.

Dont Talk to Police

Seriously, watch the video. Save the link for later if you do not have time now. Share it with your friends. It is important information to know. The 5th Amendment is just as important as the 2nd. Know what the 5th is, why it is important, and most of all, how to use it to protect yourself.

Again, please do not think or believe LEO are the problem. Following any incident, emotions, adrenaline, stress, confusion, anxiety, and a thousand other things can cause your mouth to spew things that can have variable definitions, which is the last thing you want in this scenario or any other. Watch the video and you will understand.

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latentcarry

· #16 · Mar 17, 2013

OldVet said:
On the flip side, if the BG says you had a concealed gun, the officer may assume you pulled it out or the guy wouldn't know. He says you pulled a gun; you have a gun; therefore the officer may well feel you did pull the gun.

Carrying a firearm has always been, and will always be, a two-edged sword.

Its unfortunate but I would expect with the current climate that you are guilty until you are proven innocent. Same as with the accusation of family violence or child molestation; you are tried and convicted in the court of public opinion with little requirement of proof. Its just politically correct.
In Ga. your carry permit has to be approved by the local law enforcement ( Sheriff ) same as FFL just the accusation of impropriety can be enough for summary disapproval. I know a guy was denied; the only reason given was did not pass background check. He had gone thru a messy divorce with child custody at stake and was accused of all sorts of things that his wife later admitted to as false statements. He had never been in trouble but the stigma must have stuck to him somehow.
I just try to keep as low profile as possible; sorta grey if you know what I mean.

Reactions: 1

ccw9mm

· #17 · Mar 17, 2013

aogiss said:
yz9890 said everthing anyone ever needs to know.

Dont Talk to Police

There are several aspects that need to be considered, post-situation.

The Unintended Consequences of Silence -- M. Hayes
The Three Most Common Post-Shooting Errors -- M. Ayoob
You Have The Right to Remain Silent -- M. Ayoob
What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self-Defense Law -- M. Hayes

The above links come from the web site of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.

Reactions: 1

Jemsaal

· #18 · Mar 17, 2013

darebear said:
How would law enforcement deal with a permit holder being falsely accused of making a threat? Lets just say hypothetically you got into a confrontation with someone... or maybe you didn't... and this person called the police and falsely accused you of making a threat, all the while you are carrying a gun. Now this person may or may not know that you have a gun. But at that point what happens when your pissed off neighbor, crazed girlfriend, or the road rage guy yelling at you for stealing his parking spot falsely accuses you of a threat and you have to explain to the responding police officer that you are carrying a gun? I understand that a person can sue with a deformation suit for any slander or libel but that is a long and arduous process. What would a police officer do if you are carrying or even have guns in your home and someone falsely accuses you of a threat?

If you are in this hypothetical situation would you explain to a officer (depending upon the accusation) that you own and/or carrying a gun legally?

Neighbor? I don't go over to my neighbor's house nor do they come to mine. We stand out front and talk. That means none of my neighbors know I have a weapon. Crazed girlfriend? You're screwed. Just the call very likely will force you to lose your weapons until it is settled and she's proven to have lied. Road rage guy? Again, how would he even know I had a gun?

Jemsaal

· #19 · Mar 17, 2013

ccw9mm said:
There are several aspects that need to be considered, post-situation.

The Unintended Consequences of Silence -- M. Hayes

The Three Most Common Post-Shooting Errors -- M. Ayoob

You Have The Right to Remain Silent -- M. Ayoob

What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self-Defense Law -- M. Hayes

The above links come from the web site of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.

Gotta call foul on the first one. "Unintended consequences of silence." Being silent does not make you look like a criminal. The minute an officer discharges his duty after a shooting, he's going to ask for a union rep. They're well aware if it.

Here's a law school professor and former criminal defense attorney talking about why you should never say anything to the police. The nice thing about this video is that an officer then gets up and gives his rebuttal. Funny thing however, it's not much of a rebuttal but rather, "yeah, and here's a few ways we do what he was saying, so he's right."

aogiss

· #20 · Mar 17, 2013

ccw9mm said:
There are several aspects that need to be considered, post-situation.

The Unintended Consequences of Silence -- M. Hayes

The Three Most Common Post-Shooting Errors -- M. Ayoob

You Have The Right to Remain Silent -- M. Ayoob

What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self-Defense Law -- M. Hayes

The above links come from the web site of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.

Thanks for expanding. As the information in your links state, there is a reasonable amount of information to share, but you need to know what it is before you need to use it. If think the proper words will come when something happens, it might not end well, even for those absolutely innocent.

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