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Medical mistakes kill people. People with guns kill people. One reality doesn't invalidate the other.
That is true. Which one is statistically more likely to kill you?
 

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That is true. Which one is statistically more likely to kill you?
Me, personally, as a gun owner, carrier, and daily shooter who hasn't been hospitalized since 1963?

Statistics tell us whatever we want them to tell us.
 
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@OldChap,

Yes,, it makes perfect sense to go after the major killers of,out population, and that is exactly what has been going on for decades. My wife was given 5 years to live after her second breast cancer whe she was 40 years old. She had four more bouts of cancer until the last one in 2002. She died in 2016 from a stroke.

We have been attacking all major diseases decades. Remember when AIDS was a death sentence? It is not so now. If you have an empirical evidence to sunstantiatd your position I would be gratified to see it so I could be educated better. You see I do not seek data to justify my leanings. I seek data to learn and adjust my leanings.

More people are killed and injured in vehicular accidents ever year than by guns. If we take suicides out of the tally on gun deaths the death stays drop by ⅔. You are introducing bad apples to condemn bad oranges. They do not compare.
You need to take some ride alongs with your police officers for a few weekends and see what actually kills a LOT of people. I hardly hear a peep out of the AMA about one of the major reasons for a huge number of deaths in the U.S. each year: drunken people. Driving, swimming, hot tubs, bathtubs, fights, drinking themselves to death, putting babies in microwaves after a bath, mowing the lawn, the list of ways people kill themselves, others, and even their own children when under the influence is almost endless. And I won't even drop another biggie: "recreational" drugs.

Empirical evidence? You can see for yourself if you take my advice and ride along with the folks who have to actually deal with all the carnage. And your last sentence proves my point. Is it your contention that guns are a major cause of death in the U.S.?

I don't need anything to justify my leanings - a clear head will work just fine. I cannot count the number of times I leaned inside a crumpled car that reeked of alcohol and looked into the dead faces of little kids crushed in the back seat. You just have to be out and about with a strong stomach. Take some Carmex to put under your nostrils.
 

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Me, personally, as a gun owner, carrier, and daily shooter who hasn't been hospitalized since 1963?

Statistics tell us whatever we want them to tell us.
It generally isn't your gun you have to worry about. On the other hand, I don't need statistics to tell me that the chances of my death from heart disease or getting hit by a drunk driver are quite a bit higher than being shot in a gunfight. I've been there, done that. You can ignore inferences drawn from facts at your own peril.
 
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OK, I am putting on my helmet and flack jacket on because I think I am about to undergo a barrage.

Ok, I am headed for the bunker.
Double up on the jackets and dig that bunker deep.

You'll note the Docs went after the cause of polio, not those infected with it (the symptoms). The cause of "gun violence" is not the guns--it's the idiots doing the shooting.

Man, I haven't posted "idiots" here since I got points last time. I'd better go check my point balance.
 
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It generally isn't your gun you have to worry about. On the other hand, I don't need statistics to tell me that the chances of my death from heart disease or getting hit by a drunk driver are quite a bit higher than being shot in a gunfight. I've been there, done that. You can ignore inferences drawn from facts at your own peril.
You are moving the goal posts here. There are many things more likely to kill me than gunfire, I'm simply not sure that medical mistake/malpractice is one of them.
 

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@OldChap,

You refer to carnage as a justification. So do the Doctors. I have seen carnage in war and a civilian news photographer. I understand carnage from the perspective.tive of a witness. But this is not about carnage. It is about reducing carnage. The Docs want to reduce it. I and many here want to reduce it too. But we will never do that without a meeiting of the minds.

The old notion that things get better when people engage in common sense and fair dealing guides my life.
 

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OK, I am putting on my helmet and flack jacket on because I think I am about to undergo a barrage.

The Docs’ opinions are based upon their professional mission. As stated in the web article they see part of their work as being trying to stop injuries from occurrring regardless of the method of injury. Now let’s be understanding of that fact. If doctors did not care about causes there would not be a polio vaccine and many other preventive medicines. So the Docs had every right to express their opinions and findings, just as we do and the NRA did.

The problem here is the NRA once again used the tactic of inciting its base by rejecting the Docs paper and chastising them for butting into something the NRA decided was not the Docs business. There are those who believe that the way to deal with disagreement is to intimidate, isolate, denigarate, etc, just like th NRA does. My view and method are different. I gain nothing but an enemy if I reject them out of hand and tell them they do not know what they are talking about, and also that they have no business talking about it. The NRA’s polarization of gun foes only strengthens the foes. The Docs and the AMA are not going away. They have big bucks too. In fact if they team up with insurers who pay the bills for the surgeries and treatments from gun wounds they can crush the NRA. It is about time for the NRA to understand the process of dispute resolution and engage it it. If it ever does that, I will become a life memes instead of a non member.

Ok, I am headed for the bunker.
One phrase comes to mind: Physician heal thyself.

Hmmm. Over-medication. Procedural errors. Knuckling under to MBAs and actuarials on how to practice. All of which leads to permanent damage and death on a huge scale. But wait! Lets point to the speck in someone else's eye.......
 

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We can look at statistics until we are blue in the face. It won't change the fact that the docs are blaming an inanimate object for something done by human decision. The shooters are the problem, not the weapons.
 

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Medical mistakes kill people. People with guns kill people. One reality doesn't invalidate the other.
Nor does one grant moral authority over another. A LOT of physicians seem to think their voice is more important simply because of their chosen profession.
 

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Nor does one grant moral authority over another. A LOT of physicians seem to think their voice is more important simply because of their chosen profession.
Quite true, but that attribute isn't limited to members of the medical profession. Politicians and elected officials immediately come to mind.
 

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Nor does one grant moral authority over another. A LOT of physicians seem to think their voice is more important simply because of their chosen profession.
Physician learn one thing in medical school and residency above all else: "L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

They are taught, quite viscerally, that the worst possible thing you can do is to say "I don't know." An answer, ANY answer, is far better than to utter those ignominious words!
 
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They are taught, quite viscerally, that the worst possible thing you can do is to say "I don't know." An answer, ANY answer, is far better than to utter those ignominious words!
Unlike in my business - developing components and systems for military, commercial and business aircraft - providing an ill-informed answer for the safe of avoiding an "I don't know" is viewed as nearly criminal. But we don't have to face the people who ultimately rely on us to keep their airplanes getting to their destinations safely.
 

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You are moving the goal posts here. There are many things more likely to kill me than gunfire, I'm simply not sure that medical mistake/malpractice is one of them.
I’m not moving any goalposts. The discussion is about the AMA. Unless you believe they are world renowned experts on everything concerning firearms, then they are fair game. Name a subject not related to medicine that the AMA spends it’s members money on lobbying.

And if you ask almost anyone who has ever spent much time working in a hospital about med errors, maybe you might want to rethink the possibilities.

This subject has been discussed here before. I stated then what I’ll repeat now. Medicine is one of a lot of fields of science that is so complex that anyone who claims that mistakes are not made, and made relatively often, just isn’t paying attention.

People defend medicine by pointing out how many lives are saved compared to how many are lost. Sound familiar from discussions about guns? The point is that on the list of things that kill people, guns are almost at the bottom. Hospital issues affect far more people, as does disease. Starting at the bottom of the list with an issue you concede you’re not an expert in and citing studies you’ve done, naturally draws laughter from experts in those fields.

I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it. Spend some time researching the subject. But lastly ask yourself what solution the AMA puts forth and I suspect you’ll come to the right conclusion. It’s the same solution we hear all the time. Disarm all law-abiding Americans and you’ll fix the gun problem. Really doc?
 

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@OldChap,

You refer to carnage as a justification. So do the Doctors. I have seen carnage in war and a civilian news photographer. I understand carnage from the perspective.tive of a witness. But this is not about carnage. It is about reducing carnage. The Docs want to reduce it. I and many here want to reduce it too. But we will never do that without a meeiting of the minds.

The old notion that things get better when people engage in common sense and fair dealing guides my life.
I agree. But you will give us a name when you find one, won’t you?
 

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I’m not moving any goalposts. The discussion is about the AMA. Unless you believe they are world renowned experts on everything concerning firearms, then they are fair game. Name a subject not related to medicine that the AMA spends it’s members money on lobbying.

And if you ask almost anyone who has ever spent much time working in a hospital about med errors, maybe you might want to rethink the possibilities.

This subject has been discussed here before. I stated then what I’ll repeat now. Medicine is one of a lot of fields of science that is so complex that anyone who claims that mistakes are not made, and made relatively often, just isn’t paying attention.

People defend medicine by pointing out how many lives are saved compared to how many are lost. Sound familiar from discussions about guns? The point is that on the list of things that kill people, guns are almost at the bottom. Hospital issues affect far more people, as does disease. Starting at the bottom of the list with an issue you concede you’re not an expert in and citing studies you’ve done, naturally draws laughter from experts in those fields.

I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it. Spend some time researching the subject. But lastly ask yourself what solution the AMA puts forth and I suspect you’ll come to the right conclusion. It’s the same solution we hear all the time. Disarm all law-abiding Americans and you’ll fix the gun problem. Really doc?
I know what solutions the AMA puts forth. While I disagree with those solutions, they have every right to put them forward in the public arena.
 

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I agree. But you will give us a name when you find one, won’t you?
OK.

“Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.” Ralph Waldo Emerson

Example: JFK and Kruchev resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis by trading off Russian missiles in Cuba for US missiles in Turkey. Thatonw avoided the,last world war, which would have ended all wars in the worst way possible.

I was on the USNS Rankin off Cuba when that agreement ended the Cuban Missile Crisis.
 

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I know what solutions the AMA puts forth. While I disagree with those solutions, they have every right to put them forward in the public arena.
Then we agree that anyone who does put forth ill-informed opinions runs the risk of experts telling them to “stay in their lanes”?
 
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