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Not true. A buddy in Iraq said something to that effect while holding a couple M-4 mags after driving out of an ambush. He was promptly hit with a few empty Rip-It cans chucked at his head.
I miss Rip-It...
If you have a little extra room in your pack before you leave the wire, it’s automatically earmarked for more ammo.
 

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I think I'm going to stick with 9 for carry, and 45 for fun.

Funny that the only true badass I've really known swore by 9mm. "I've never had too many bullets, but I have ran out." Is what he'd say.
What’s even funnier is the ones I know are all in favor of as much training as is possible, regardless of what Uncle tells them to carry.
 

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I'll pass on that (hard cast) for SD.
Glass was just an example, link includes bare gel and heavy clothed gel.

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
Heavy clothed gel:
9mm 147 HST - 12.5'' / .69
40 S&W 180 HST - 12.5'' / .80
45 acp 230 HST 13.5'' / .87

9mm 147 HST is good, but it appears Federal applied the "modern" treatment to 40 and 45 as well.
You know hard cast will penetrate those too! And You know I'm just poking at you. I'm not saying cast is better or worse. In certain guns I do carry hard cast bullets though. DR
 

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I'll take the 45 acp 230 HST 13.5'' / .87 please....
Here ya go, pictured on top of a quarter, improved modern 9mm is on a dime, for reference.
QuartersvsDimes.jpg
 

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Those of you who are "expansion junkies" do understand that a basic principle of physics called drag enters into those equations. Some may have forgotten a little easy science, so pardon this.

Get someone to drive you along an empty road at 60 miles per hour. Put your open hand palm-forward into the wind by sticking it out the window. Feel the push against your hand? That is drag.

Now, instead of your hand, use a metal garbage can lid, bottom side into the wind. Same speed, way different "push" needed to hold the can lid still in the airflow. That is drag.

You can overcome drag by streamlining, but when a bullet expands, the streamlining is gone.

Now consider penetration. Given two projectiles fully expanded, but of different non-streamlined sizes, which one needs more energy to move through the target medium? You have two ways to provide that energy: momentum - (basically weight), and velocity. I'll let you all look up the formulas. You can find them in the studies of air and fluid dynamics. The human body is considered more in the fluid arena. Trust me. You don't get anything for free. You need penetration AND expansion.

Different tools for different jobs. We used to say, different strokes for different strokes.
 

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You need penetration AND expansion.
Exactly.

To put it a different way, you have to hit what you're aiming at, and damage it.

Hitting what you're aiming at requires both accurate shot placement and sufficient penetration to actually reach the intended target (the vitals inside, not just an external surface aim reference point).

Damaging what your aiming at (critical interior organs) requires the projectile to crush or tear the organ when it gets there and as it passes through. Expansion is important here.
 

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Now consider penetration. Given two projectiles fully expanded, but of different non-streamlined sizes, which one needs more energy to move through the target medium? You have two ways to provide that energy: momentum - (basically weight), and velocity. I'll let you all look up the formulas. You can find them in the studies of air and fluid dynamics. The human body is considered more in the fluid arena. Trust me. You don't get anything for free. You need penetration AND expansion.
10mm = Energy + Momentum + Expansion + Penetration. :wink:
Represented by the Hornady 180 gr. XTP - 16.9'' / .64 after heavy clothing.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/



But you're right, it aint free. Got to be willing (and able) to conceal a larger pistol. And, tolerate a bit of recoil (about like 45 acp +P).
 

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It doesn't really matter that much to me. Yes, I only carry (gasp) one gun at a time. Contrary to popular (here on this forum, anyway) sentiment, I carry different calibers without worrying about it too much. All "modern" SD bullets are better imo. The 90 gr. XTP in the .380 I slip into my pocket sometimes will stop an attacker (however remote the possibility may be of me encountering one) if I do my part. The 124 gr HST in the 9mm I carry IWB sometimes will do the same. The 230gr .45 a.c.p. HP in my Commander carried IWB will do it too -- probably quicker, though. The most important part is -- if I do my part.
 

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It doesn't really matter that much to me. Yes, I only carry (gasp) one gun at a time. Contrary to popular (here on this forum, anyway) sentiment, I carry different calibers without worrying about it too much. All "modern" SD bullets are better imo. The 90 gr. XTP in the .380 I slip into my pocket sometimes will stop an attacker (however remote the possibility may be of me encountering one) if I do my part. The 124 gr HST in the 9mm I carry IWB sometimes will do the same. The 230gr .45 a.c.p. HP in my Commander carried IWB will do it too -- probably quicker, though. The most important part is -- if I do my part.
And there it is...the definitive answer. Now that wasn't too hard was it?

Congratulations @Wavygravy
 

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When I start vying to be the second one, I'll switch back to 9mm.
:35: frickin funny right there, you ended up telling me to use something I once wrote, in a post for my Sig. line. That’s quote worthy. :rofl::rofl:
 

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It doesn't really matter that much to me. Yes, I only carry (gasp) one gun at a time. Contrary to popular (here on this forum, anyway) sentiment, I carry different calibers without worrying about it too much. All "modern" SD bullets are better imo. The 90 gr. XTP in the .380 I slip into my pocket sometimes will stop an attacker (however remote the possibility may be of me encountering one) if I do my part. The 124 gr HST in the 9mm I carry IWB sometimes will do the same. The 230gr .45 a.c.p. HP in my Commander carried IWB will do it too -- probably quicker, though. The most important part is -- if I do my part.
Not just WG, but all the members here who can turn a caliber war thread into true education with subtle nuances of truth are just so classy. I appreciate you guys.

Mods. totally first class. Sharp enough to let the threat bloom into greatness. :hand15:
 

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Not just WG, but all the members here who can turn a caliber war thread into true education with subtle nuances of truth are just so classy. I appreciate you guys.

Mods. totally first class. Sharp enough to let the threat bloom into greatness. :hand15:
There’s a lot of knowledge here, one must only ask...
 

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What can YOU do with what YOU carry? That is the real debate, not caliber or platform.

Do you carry based on that or someone's opinion of what you should carry? Once I went down the road of actually finding out what I could do with a given piece of hardware I started to set aside the ones recommended by others and concentrate more on my personal abilities to carry out the mission of self defense.

I have made some really stupid statements in the past about what I thought vs trying it out and seeing how I did. I have probably been grazed more than once by the "banned" bullet. Still here on my feet.:danceban: I keep looking over my shoulder though just to see if Maggie is following me.
 

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"Come on, all you need is a hollow point buck shot fired in the air from your double barreled, 25 caliber automatic AR-14."
Sounds like what I heard the groper say one time, around 2008.

This may or may not be a future quote from someone about how terrible and deadly ammunition has become.
Yeah, 'cause regular old 00, as in 100 years old, was oh, so lame you could shoot deer with it all day long and never bring one down. "Stupid round stuff. Worthless." Lol...
 
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