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Thoughts?

Definition of either or both?
"Running the gun" to me invokes the user's competency to not just shoot the gun, but also to quickly and deliberately identify and fix malfunctions when they occur, as well as reloading the gun in a satisfactory manner in order to minimize the amount of time the gun is either down for mechanical or ammunition related reasons.
 

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As I've seen it there are folks that can shoot, but cannot "run the gun".

By definition of "run the gun" I mean; beyond basic operation, familiarity of the controls, reloads, "feel" going to slide lock, and remedial action drills all under some time constraints/stress. Familiarity to the point it doesn't take thought. Whereas a decent shot can normally "hit" ok-to-well with a gun they're not all that familiar with.

Chuck
 

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There are plenty of folks who can feather a clutch, get a sports car off the line, then shift & steer their way around the track. Yet the folks who can "run the car" will pass & leave the aforementioned pile-of-plenty like they're...dragging a tombstone. :image035:
 

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"Running the gun" to me invokes the user's competency to not just shoot the gun, but also to quickly and deliberately identify and fix malfunctions when they occur, as well as reloading the gun in a satisfactory manner in order to minimize the amount of time the gun is either down for mechanical or ammunition related reasons.
As I've seen it there are folks that can shoot, but cannot "run the gun".

By definition of "run the gun" I mean; beyond basic operation, familiarity of the controls, reloads, "feel" going to slide lock, and remedial action drills all under some time constraints/stress. Familiarity to the point it doesn't take thought. Whereas a decent shot can normally "hit" ok-to-well with a gun they're not all that familiar with.

Chuck
Plus 1 to both of these.


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There are also people who can "run the gun" - move and shoot, smoking fast double taps, reload quickly, clear malfunctions... and who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if they were standing inside.

Source: I used to be one of those guys. I still have relapses.
But can they hit the target?
 

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"Run the gun" to me means intimate familiarity with the weapon, quickly reloading and clearing malfunctions, etc. Running the gun also includes the
ability to rapidly get hits on a target or multiple targets (moving or not) and maintaining the proper mindset. Not a game folks!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
But can they hit the target?
If they couldn't, they weren't running the gun to begin with. It's a level that's mastered only after one can shoot and make hits.

Some good responses and thoughts have been posted on the differences, and it helps define what the differences may be for those who'll only read and not post on the subject, thereby giving all members some insight.
 

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Using as an example this book: The Modern Technique Of The Pistol by G.B.Morrison & (Jeff Copper, Editorial Adviser) Copy right 1991 Part Two: Gunhandling with eight chapters (which would be what is being referred to as Run The Gun subjects. The book is presented in (4) parts with (23) chapters (151) pages. I really can't acknowledge what the capabilities of the average concealed carrier person actually is. Minimal by what standard applies?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
As I've seen it there are folks that can shoot, but cannot "run the gun".

By definition of "run the gun" I mean; beyond basic operation, familiarity of the controls, reloads, "feel" going to slide lock, and remedial action drills all under some time constraints/stress. Familiarity to the point it doesn't take thought. Whereas a decent shot can normally "hit" ok-to-well with a gun they're not all that familiar with.

Chuck
Thanks for the post Chuck, I think you'll like this:

The Warrior Psyche

In one of his lectures, Cooper discussed this philosophy. He described walking down a dark street and being confronted by a “goblin.” He said that you will suddenly be looking at the goblin over the sights of your pistol—how the pistol came to be there would be something you didn’t think about. The pistol was just there, presented from the holster without thought, based on years of repetitive practice. The only thinking that had to be done was to decide whether or not to shoot.
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In Joe Hyams’ great book, Zen in the Martial Arts, he asks Bruce Lee what he would do if Lee were forced into a real battle, in which he was forced to fight for his life. Lee’s reply was, “I have thought about that often. If it was a real fight, I’m certain that I would hurt my assailant badly, perhaps kill him…I would plead that I had no responsibility for my action. ‘It’ killed him, not me.

“‘It’ is when you act with unconscious awareness, you just act. When you throw a punch at me, I intercept it and hit you back, but without thought. ‘It’ just happens.It’ is the state of mind the Japanese refer to as mushin (moosheen), which literally means ‘no mind.Mushin is attained only through practice and more practice, until you can do something without conscious effort. Then your reaction becomes automatic.
 

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.......a la Clint Smith.
 
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"No mind". One of my favorite parts of The Last Samurai, which I just watched most of again last night :rolleyes:
Cruise's character is losing his practice battles. He is then told, "no mind, too many mind". Paraphrasing here, he is then told, "mind the sword, mind the people... too many mind".

So you get the point. The point is to react without thinking. Once the decision has been made you need to react.

So to try to connect that with the thread, I guess if you can react and have practiced drawing and shooting to the point you don't need to think about it you have a good chance of winning the fight.
But IMO "running the gun" simply means you can get the most out of your firearm. At least that's how I always thought of it.
To tie that into the car analogies that have been brought up lately, just because you can get the most out of your car, doesn't mean you can drive in traffic or tune the suspension. You simply know how to drive your car fast.

How about another analogy while I'm on a roll? :wink:
Shutzhund.
Do you know how many Shutzhund dogs make terrible personal protection dogs? A lot.
It's a whole nuther way of training. Bark and hold, working blinds, no real pressure. Nobody trying to make the dog back down. Everything in prey and nothing in defense. It sure does show good training though.

Can Jerry Miculek run his gun? Damn straight he can. Does that equate to him being able to handle himself in a self defense situation? I have no idea. Maybe he can. Maybe someone will post he's former LEO with a history. I have no idea. But just because he can run his gun doesn't automatically mean he's the Achilles of battle. There are probably a lot of shooters out there who can do well on the course that you might not want to go into battle with.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. Running your gun to me simply means you know how to handle your gun better than well. To the point it comes naturally. That will give you the edge in battle, if you know how to run your mind.
 

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"Running the gun" to me invokes the user's competency to not just shoot the gun, but also to quickly and deliberately identify and fix malfunctions when they occur, as well as reloading the gun in a satisfactory manner in order to minimize the amount of time the gun is either down for mechanical or ammunition related reasons.
That's how I see it as well.
 

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How about another analogy while I'm on a roll? :wink:
Shutzhund.
Do you know how many Shutzhund dogs make terrible personal protection dogs? A lot.
It's a whole nuther way of training. Bark and hold, working blinds, no real pressure. Nobody trying to make the dog back down. Everything in prey and nothing in defense. It sure does show good training though.
Now thats an analogy I can understand :smile: Most Schutzhund dogs lack true fight drive. They operate in pure prey drive, just a big game to alot of them. Have to say it's not all, have seen some really tough good protection dogs come out of Schutzhund. A Shepherd or any other dog without a "clear head" and true fight drive could not be counted on to protect. Have done some decoy work on dogs that were supposed to be protection dogs,,,,wouldn't have them protecting my family.

Same for a person. You can learn to shoot, learn all the right moves, hit the target every time, but when in a SHTF situation if you lack the fight drive,you may fail. I guess we all hope we will have the correct fight mentality at the time its needed.

Ok, sorry to be little off topic,,,,I just love dogs,,especially my Shepherds :smile:
 

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I think where some of us are lacking in experience in real life gunfights, we hope to make up for with muscle memory.
No mind :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
There has to be a special category of Darwin Award for someone who starts a gunfight with Jerry Miculek.
Do we know if he even carries a sd sidearm to begin with? I know Leatham, for years was the top dog in the world, and didn't carry a gun for sd. He may now, not sure. Surprised the hell out of a lot of people Robbie didn't carry one daily. We share the same home range
 
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