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Discussion Starter #21
What do you mean by "best"?

Basically what I mean is. Lets say a 190lb in shape man was going to be defending a 1,000 sqft house, at night time, and where only allowed 2 guns. You had unlimited money for this and in this made up scenario every gun is legal . Which 2 weapons would you purchase? Those 2 weapons would be the "best".
Now I am sure there is some sort of range where someone would say X is best, another would say Y is best, etc., but the "best range" has to be relatively small if we are to be completely honest and unbiased.
 

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Usually comes down to cheapest gun...

We actually just had our Glocks arrive (CBP), and talking to the firearm guys, CBP isn’t doing an armorer’s course. The guns were picked up so cheap that they will just replace broken ones... or so I’ve been told.
 

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Basically what I mean is. Lets say a 190lb in shape man was going to be defending a 1,000 sqft house, at night time, and where only allowed 2 guns. You had unlimited money for this and in this made up scenario every gun is legal . Which 2 weapons would you purchase? Those 2 weapons would be the "best".
Now I am sure there is some sort of range where someone would say X is best, another would say Y is best, etc., but the "best range" has to be relatively small if we are to be completely honest and unbiased.
If you are defending a 1,000 square ft house the 2 weapons i would choose are a shotgun and a semi automatic pistol and a good light.
The most expensive weapon is not always the best.
My budget is not unlimited so my shotgun choice is Mossberg. Reasonably priced and well made.
Most know my pistol choice is a Sig 1911 platform pistol.
 

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They don't always. Except for one rank in the military you carry what you are told . No exceptions. Most cases LE carry what they are told to. A bean counter or some elected official buys what they see as the best deal Or buys based on who will pass on some payment to them. Some LE carry glock nothing American about a glock.
Glock made a name by selling below cost to LE . Beretta US military had the 9mm M9 Beratta as side arm issue for a long time. It was a and still is a fine weapon but they they got the deal because of NATO.
Current replacement for the M9 is a Sig nothing American about it either . Again NATO influence US companies could have supplied an even better weapon.
And by the way US tax payers got screwed on the SIG big time.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
They don't always. Except for one rank in the military you carry what you are told . No exceptions. Most cases LE carry what they are told to. A bean counter or some elected official buys what they see as the best deal Or buys based on who will pass on some payment to them. Some LE carry glock nothing American about a glock.
Glock made a name by selling below cost to LE . Beretta US military had the 9mm M9 Beratta as side arm issue for a long time. It was a and still is a fine weapon but they they got the deal because of NATO.
Current replacement for the M9 is a Sig nothing American about it either . Again NATO influence US companies could have supplied an even better weapon.
And by the way US tax payers got screwed on the SIG big time.
Thank you. Do even spec op teams of similar caliber teams carry around weapons picked for the best deal? Or do some of these guys end up with the absolute best regardless of cost.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
If you are defending a 1,000 square ft house the 2 weapons i would choose are a shotgun and a semi automatic pistol and a good light.
The most expensive weapon is not always the best.
My budget is not unlimited so my shotgun choice is Mossberg. Reasonably priced and well made.
Most know my pistol choice is a Sig 1911 platform pistol.
Thanks for the response. So imagine this scenario. You have unlimited time to train with your weapon for a home invasion to defend this house and can choose any shotgun and semi auto pistol for free. Would you still pick the Mossberg and sig 1911?
 

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For home defense a Mossberg.
If I was shooting Trap or Skeet in competition then a high end Benneli.
Pistol if cost was no object well a Wilson combat or a Dan Wesson.
Do not get too hung up on price. Some of the best guns i own are not top of top of the line safe queens or race guns.
The most important thing you mentioned is unlimited time to train.
I would spend my money on top of the line instruction.
 

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Thank you. Do even spec op teams of similar caliber teams carry around weapons picked for the best deal? Or do some of these guys end up with the absolute best regardless of cost.
There are always ways to get weapons that may be desired by some units in limited numbers. Example as a 1SG even in the infantry my issue weapon was a hand gun. But if I wanted an m4 or a saw all I had to do it as for it. The US Army still has m14 in inventory. Many are ones that had been upgraded. Any unit with designated marksmen can request them. And they do. Most of longer range security. Shot guns are generally limited inventory . But you can request and get more. Depending on mission they are often used with special rounds to open locked doors and remove hinges quickly. A unit will have an SOP issue, they often have more than one version of the SOP requiring different equipment for different task. That is way the rail systems was required on the SIG. So it could use more of the tools. Contrary to what some will tell you while the 45 was replaced with the m9 , there were always 45's still in inventory. And not wore out junk . Some dam fine weapons.
The best deal does not mean a lesser weapon in many cases. The military for the most part needs common issue. If you have 4 company's carry 3 different weapons supplying ammo ,parts and maintenance becomes almost impossible. Trying to define best is one subject that never gets answered.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
For home defense a Mossberg.
If I was shooting Trap or Skeet in competition then a high end Benneli.
Pistol if cost was no object well a Wilson combat or a Dan Wesson.
Do not get too hung up on price. Some of the best guns i own are not top of top of the line safe queens or race guns.
The most important thing you mentioned is unlimited time to train.
I would spend my money on top of the line instruction.
Thank you. Of course, I totally agree with the training aspect. I would rather have the best training than the best gun. Thanks a lot. You answered my question perfectly. Very informative. I am still very new to the learning about all of these brands.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
There are always ways to get weapons that may be desired by some units in limited numbers. Example as a 1SG even in the infantry my issue weapon was a hand gun. But if I wanted an m4 or a saw all I had to do it as for it. The US Army still has m14 in inventory. Many are ones that had been upgraded. Any unit with designated marksmen can request them. And they do. Most of longer range security. Shot guns are generally limited inventory . But you can request and get more. Depending on mission they are often used with special rounds to open locked doors and remove hinges quickly. A unit will have an SOP issue, they often have more than one version of the SOP requiring different equipment for different task. That is way the rail systems was required on the SIG. So it could use more of the tools. Contrary to what some will tell you while the 45 was replaced with the m9 , there were always 45's still in inventory. And not wore out junk . Some dam fine weapons.
The best deal does not mean a lesser weapon in many cases. The military for the most part needs common issue. If you have 4 company's carry 3 different weapons supplying ammo ,parts and maintenance becomes almost impossible. Trying to define best is one subject that never gets answered.
Thanks a lot. I didn't know the vast majority of this and it was a great read.
 

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.Rather trying to say 1 is the best try grouping weapons at different levels Cost is always a factor. Higher cost does not always mean a better weapon. Many things add to a weapon that increase cost do not make it better on increase bragging rights.
glock makes a good hang gun. Not the best from my experience and IMO. When the US military went shopping for a new issue hand gun Glock could not even compete . The lack of a safe meant it did not met requirements. Sig had an edge some never gave any though to. You can disassemble a SIG with out pulling the trigger. It got high marks for that. Why? because **** happens and the military don't like for it to. It would take a page to explain it. The US military from air force to navy has a lot of different size people.
the SIG had two size option and simple to modify the grip . US Army infantry hand guns have limited use. Back up for machine gunner, Medics . Some guard duty in low threat areas. On my last two deployments it seemed everyone in the Air force had a hand gun. No one knew why.. How many people do you see on a Navy ship carrying hand guns . Not many . There are a list of weapons you could lay on a table next to the SIG . If you could rule out personal Bias anyone of them would have advantages and disadvantages. The real problem is those list would not be the same for every uses and method it was to be deployed. So there is always compromise. Fix an issue 10% have and create a new 20% that had no issue before. Biggest down side to the SIG is it is to fancy. The price tag is out of this world. I would have gone with the updated Beratta. But Weather real or not negatives attached to the M9 did it in. Is the SIG option the Best. Well it has to be now that was the one they purchased. I have one coming a deployment commemorative edition . Not cheap it is a gift. All of the added cost have little to do with making it a better weapon. I would not have gone out and purchased one. What is the best ? The one you end up with when all the work is done and the check has been handed over.
 

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Usually comes down to cheapest gun...

We actually just had our Glocks arrive (CBP), and talking to the firearm guys, CBP isn’t doing an armorer’s course. The guns were picked up so cheap that they will just replace broken ones... or so I’ve been told.
I just placed an order on Monday for 18 new Glocks for our Dept. a Gen 5 G17's and G19's all M.O.S versions with AmeriGlo Bold night sights, dept price was $500.50 per unit, same price for 17 and 19s, I'm a Glock Armorer for our Dept. also, I can't imagine just getting a new one, if one goes down, Glock parts are pretty inexpensive and easy to repair.
 

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I just placed an order on Monday for 18 new Glocks for our Dept. a Gen 5 G17's and G19's all M.O.S versions with AmeriGlo Bold night sights, dept price was $500.50 per unit, same price for 17 and 19s, I'm a Glock Armorer for our Dept. also, I can't imagine just getting a new one, if one goes down, Glock parts are pretty inexpensive and easy to repair.
Buy 30,000+... and see where the prices fall.
 

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There are always ways to get weapons that may be desired by some units in limited numbers. Example as a 1SG even in the infantry my issue weapon was a hand gun. But if I wanted an m4 or a saw all I had to do it as for it. The US Army still has m14 in inventory. Many are ones that had been upgraded. Any unit with designated marksmen can request them. And they do. Most of longer range security. Shot guns are generally limited inventory . But you can request and get more. Depending on mission they are often used with special rounds to open locked doors and remove hinges quickly. A unit will have an SOP issue, they often have more than one version of the SOP requiring different equipment for different task. That is way the rail systems was required on the SIG. So it could use more of the tools. Contrary to what some will tell you while the 45 was replaced with the m9 , there were always 45's still in inventory. And not wore out junk . Some dam fine weapons.
The best deal does not mean a lesser weapon in many cases. The military for the most part needs common issue. If you have 4 company's carry 3 different weapons supplying ammo ,parts and maintenance becomes almost impossible. Trying to define best is one subject that never gets answered.
Back in my Army days (half a century ago) every unit had a Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) listing authorized personnel by rank and MOS (military occupational specialty), and all authorized equipment by Federal Stock Number (FSN). Periodic inspections were conducted to make sure that everyone and everything were accounted for.

At times these things became a little bit bizarre. I remember serving in I CORPS (farthest northern part of South Vietnam), literally at the far end of all supply channels. By 1971 we were required to account for every round of ammunition expended; literally, if a patrol came under fire we were required to contact HQ to request permission to return fire. Ordering artillery fire missions or air support was a major challenge. Even though we always had difficulty receiving any supplies (including ammunition, food, boots, uniforms, whatever) and we were constantly scavenging and trading with other units, when the IG (inspector general) was scheduled for a unit inspection we were forced to either bury anything in excess of TO&E or have it taken by helicopter and dumped in the South China Sea, otherwise there would be a negative IG inspection report (reflected badly on commanders and supply officers, as in "no more promotions for this guy" or "relieve that guy of his command").

As far as weapons were concerned, privately-owned weapons were generally prohibited (very few exceptions, usually requiring specific written orders from upper command), and issued weapons were always strictly accounted for. Any loss of a weapon was a very serious matter requiring full reporting and investigation, at minimum, or court martial proceedings, at worst. I personally knew two guys who were medi-vac'd due to wounds in combat, later returned to duty but unable to account for personal weapons (probably policed up by hospital staff, or taken by evacuation crews), and were forced to pay for those missing weapons. The book value of a US M16A1 rifle at that time was about the same as a sergeant E5's monthly pay, a US M1911A-1 pistol was nearly a hundred bucks, a US M7 bayonet was about $20, and a US M60 machinegun cost about what you might pay for a decent new car back in the States. For perspective in today's economy, at that time my base pay (sergeant E5) was $248.75 per month, $65 combat pay, $55 jump pay, $30 overseas pay, $17 family separation allowance, and I received $105 per month for housing my wife and kids; no income tax because I was in a combat zone. Believe me, no one wanted to pay for a missing rifle!
 

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Back in my Army days (half a century ago) every unit had a Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) listing authorized personnel by rank and MOS (military occupational specialty), and all authorized equipment by Federal Stock Number (FSN). Periodic inspections were conducted to make sure that everyone and everything were accounted for.

At times these things became a little bit bizarre. I remember serving in I CORPS (farthest northern part of South Vietnam), literally at the far end of all supply channels. By 1971 we were required to account for every round of ammunition expended; literally, if a patrol came under fire we were required to contact HQ to request permission to return fire. Ordering artillery fire missions or air support was a major challenge. Even though we always had difficulty receiving any supplies (including ammunition, food, boots, uniforms, whatever) and we were constantly scavenging and trading with other units, when the IG (inspector general) was scheduled for a unit inspection we were forced to either bury anything in excess of TO&E or have it taken by helicopter and dumped in the South China Sea, otherwise there would be a negative IG inspection report (reflected badly on commanders and supply officers, as in "no more promotions for this guy" or "relieve that guy of his command").

As far as weapons were concerned, privately-owned weapons were generally prohibited (very few exceptions, usually requiring specific written orders from upper command), and issued weapons were always strictly accounted for. Any loss of a weapon was a very serious matter requiring full reporting and investigation, at minimum, or court martial proceedings, at worst. I personally knew two guys who were medi-vac'd due to wounds in combat, later returned to duty but unable to account for personal weapons (probably policed up by hospital staff, or taken by evacuation crews), and were forced to pay for those missing weapons. The book value of a US M16A1 rifle at that time was about the same as a sergeant E5's monthly pay, a US M1911A-1 pistol was nearly a hundred bucks, a US M7 bayonet was about $20, and a US M60 machinegun cost about what you might pay for a decent new car back in the States. For perspective in today's economy, at that time my base pay (sergeant E5) was $248.75 per month, $65 combat pay, $55 jump pay, $30 overseas pay, $17 family separation allowance, and I received $105 per month for housing my wife and kids; no income tax because I was in a combat zone. Believe me, no one wanted to pay for a missing rifle!
Same system in place today just modernized. Many changes now every rifleman has nigh vision , reddot and full list of tools available. I do also remember how broke I was at one time in the Army. The retirement pay and tricare for life seems to have worked out ok. My wife was doing her retirement paper work and kept asking me about keep health insurance options open. The person walking her through the paper work kept pushing it. I had to remind her she has her Tricare for life anyway.
The longer you stay in the more you learn about how things work. Like help a soldier pay for lost gear. You remind the supply that he has to pay the depreciated value not new issue value. Had a soldier that lost full issue out of the back of a truck Full issue everything . They had handed him a very large bill. By the time I was done with them he owed $20.
By Army reg no one can authorize a private weapon. The only service member that can purchase and carry their own weapon of choice is a general. Few do it now days if any. Regardless of units TO&E most any normal weapon or part can be requested if done right. It may get denied. Like trying to order the turbo kit hummv. I request 1 extra m24 and they sent us two of them.
One thing for dam sure those days are gone for us but we will never for get them.
 
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