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Well, each of the 00 buckshot would penetrate less than .380 FMJ. And 9 pellets from a shotgun is nowhere near the penetration and power of 9 115 gn 9mms. It only takes four 9mm rounds to exceed the total energy of the 00 pellets and each shot has far more momentum to penetrate.

It just kind of seems like the effectiveness of the shotgun comes from a number of relatively shallow penetrating pellets. Perhaps more of a shock effect than penetrating organs.
00 full-power and reduced recoil buckshot will through and through an adult male even wearing heavy clothing.

You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think it has enough power to penetrate organs.
 

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As a former Crime Scene guy I got to examine a lot of folks at the ME office after we finished the crime scene. I wont say which is better, (380 vs 00) but I have seen practical results.
One in particular was a great example for this thread. Drugged up male, wearing a T-shirt and armed with a handgun, absorbed 3 x 55gr urban Tap and 3 x 12ga Rem Reduced Recoil rounds from 14" barreled shotguns all at less than 5 yards distance. So at least we had one consistent body for bone and muscle structure and tested the loads all in a "like manner" so to speak. From this I developed the opinion that 14" barrels and reduced recoil loads were too weak for my preferences and desires of what I wanted in terminal effectiveness.
One shotgun round made it thru the chest cavity with about a 1.5" spread pattern, all pellets stopped at the back side of the chest- wad in the lung and a 2" dia. wound track. (~8 in depth to the wound track and the pellets stopped)
One shotgun round to the buttocks all pellets stopped at the top of the femur by the hip socket and hip joint (again about a 1" spread of pattern), but not much penetration.
One shotgun round to the lower chest and liver with again 1.5" pattern penetrated to the back of the thin body about 8" total length of penetration.
Lesson learned for me. Reduced recoil rounds in short barrels have limited penetrating power; and an 18" barrel length with High velocity 00 rounds I also examined in other autopsies penetrated much better.
The 55gr urban TAP was fantastic. Made Gelatin out of a thigh, and broke the femur for one impact.
Another TAP round thru the chest jellied a lung and was more devastating than the 00 buck wounds and much wider. It also did not over-penetrate and stopped on the far side of the torso in fragments.
Another TAP round jellied an bicep-tricep, broke the arm and then only made it thru the sheet rock and stopped in the wall cavity.
Another TAP round that missed the target (it was a dynamic fire-fight from a hallway to a room) made it thru drywall, and exterior OSB Sheeting, but could not get out the buildings aluminum siding. - So yes Urban Tap minimizes over penetration worries in interior environments.
Comparing all of these and other 00 buck wound tracks to various 380s I have seen used (or 9mm ball wound tracks) showed me that 00 buck pellets cause equivalent damage as 1x380 (if it expands). The 380 will generally penetrate better however.
BTW one 55gr Urban TAP can turn a large liver into liquid and cause one to bleed out massively internally while dropping that person instantly.
62gr SS109 projectiles at distances where they fragment are as effective on Caribou chest cavities as was an 06 round, so long a no large bones are encountered.
Lesson learned - test your defensive ammo on animals - its more realistic than Gelatin. Good handgun rounds are effective at handgun ranges on deer and you will learn a lot. Use full power ammo - Reduced recoil buckshot while nice for recoil sensitive people is not my first choice.
Shot placement was always the most important - "a golden hit to the Aorta with 380 ball beats 4 40rds every time.
^^^ This is the kind of information that is gold IMO.

Just found this older thread. I think real world "what I have seen" beats all the gelatin tests, and meat tests in the world. Those mediums are great substitutes and give us much needed data, but nothing beats the real world.
 

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Discussion Starter #143
00 full-power and reduced recoil buckshot will through and through an adult male even wearing heavy clothing.

You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think it has enough power to penetrate organs.
You need to re-read what @V2d posted about real-world shootings with 00 buckshot.

The energy of individual 00 pellets is what is going to drive them. Individually, a reduced power 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380 bullet.

I think what is confusing is that collectively, the 12 ga is a powerful load, but the individual pellets are really wimps. Each pellet, as an individual projectile has less energy than a .380 bullet. I think it's hard to realize that all that power from the 12 ga load is essentially divided up evenly over the pellets. In a 9 pellet load, each pellet would only have one ninth of the total energy of the full load. Hence each pellet only has that energy to do work - like penetrate.

There was a police shooting with reduced recoil at 40 yards and the 00 pellets didn't penetrate his leather jacket. They used a 5.56 to put him down. When he got to the hospital the 00 buck fell out of his jacket.

Can you give us some real-life examples where reduced power 00 penetrated through a human with heavy clothing?
 
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Not according to what I've read. There was a police shooting with reduced recoil at 40 yards and the 00 pellets didn't penetrate his leather jacket. They used a 5.56 to put him down. When he got to the hospital the 00 buck fell out of his jacket.

Can you give us some real-life examples where reduced power 00 penetrated through a human?

The only example I have witnessed was a man wearing a T-shirt shot in the mid-section at about ten feet with a full power 00 Buckshot from a 12 gauge riot gun. He was DRT and it was very messy. I have shot animals at close range with full power 00 and they collapse in a heap about 99.94% of the time. To me, the shotgun is a close range defensive weapon. Anything around 25 yards and up, I would want to transition to a rifle or at least a long barrel big bore handgun.
 

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While the ops point is valid, his is picking loads and ammo to come to the conclusion he desires, kind of like climate change. Compare full house 3 inch #00 buck to you SD .380 and the numbers won't look so bad (good).
 

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Discussion Starter #146
While the ops point is valid, his is picking loads and ammo to come to the conclusion he desires, kind of like climate change. Compare full house 3 inch #00 buck to you SD .380 and the numbers won't look so bad (good).
I fully agree the 12 ga is a good close range gun and never said otherwise.

Actually it's you that's picking. I used standard, widely used loads, standard 00 loads, standard 380 loads. You're comparing 3 inch loads to standard 380s. I could have picked 380 +P but i didn't, I tried to compare commonly used loads. Even police departments have migrated to reduced recoil loads, not 3 inch loads.

But, lets give the 3" magnum a try. How many pellets in a 3 inch magnum and what is the muzzle velocity? We can then calculate the energy, divide that energy up among the pellets and compare it to the energy of a 380.

I know it's hard to believe that the individual pellets have about the same energy as a 380, but it's true. Plus, the 380 has a higher BC than a spherical 00 shot and will retain more of it's energy as it goes down range than a 00 pellet. That's not to say the 00 isn't effective at very close ranges. But as far as efficiency goes, in this thread alone we've seen real world street encounters that didn't work up to expectations.

Why do you think the powerful 12 ga is nowhere near as effective at 100 yards and beyond as a 5.56 rifle at the same distance? No doubt the 12 ga loads leave the muzzle with far more energy, so if one 30 cal pellet from a 00 load hit a person at 100 yards why is it not just as effective as a 5.56?

The answer is in the energy of the pellet. Individual pellets have low muzzle energy, about the same as a .380, but very low BCs and give up energy rapidly as the range increases. It's not that the shotgun isn't effective at close range, it can be, but the fact remains that the energy of the individual pellets of a standard 12 ga 00 load has about the same energy as a standard 380 SD round.

It's interesting that we know a 12 ga 00 load is not effective at 40 yards or so and beyond, but we seldom realize why. Intuitively, we might think since the 00 pellet is about 30 cal, getting hit with one should be as effective as getting hit with a 30 cal rifle bullet. But at longer ranges, i.e. about 40 yards, the 00 pellet has nowhere near the energy of a 30 cal rifle bullet because all that muzzle energy of the entire load has to be shared equally by 9 pellets and the energy each pellet gets is about the energy level of a 380.

Give me the muzzle velocity and number of 00 pellets in a 3 inch load and lets see if there's much difference in the energy of the individual pellets.
 

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Discussion Starter #147
I looked it up. The total energy from a 3 inch 00 load is a whopping 2686 ft-lbs. I say whopping but that's about the same as a run of the mill .308, anyway...

There are 15, 00 pellets in a 3 inch load, so dividing the total energy of 2686 ft-lbs by 15 gives us and individual pellet energy of 179 ft-lbs. The energy given for a run of the mill 90 gr JHP 380, as listed by Wikipedia, is 210 ft-lb. So, once again we see the reality that the energy of an individual 12 ga 00 pellet, even from a 3 inch 00 load is less than a .380.

I make no other claims. This thread from the start simply showed the surprising energy level of the individual pellets of 00. My OP was not to evaluate the effectiveness of the 12 ga 00 at close range.
 

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Why are you so hung up on it, then? It’s about like a 9-round burst from a .32 ACP Vz-61 Skorpion. With a semi-auto with 7 rounds onboard (what I use for home defense), that’s about 63 rounds of .32 ACP that can be fired in less than 3 seconds. It does the job, what else is there to say? You’ve made your point.
 

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Why are you so hung up on it, then? It’s about like a 9-round burst from a .32 ACP Vz-61 Skorpion. With a semi-auto with 7 rounds onboard (what I use for home defense), that’s about 63 rounds of .32 ACP that can be fired in less than 3 seconds. It does the job, what else is there to say? You’ve made your point.
It's not that I'm hung up on anything, it's that I have to keep explaining that this thread wasn't about the effectiveness of a shotgun. It specifically and singularly addresses the surprisingly low energy in 00 pellets. Obviously some infer that to be a statement about the effectiveness of a shotgun, which of course, if you read the OP, it is not about. It must be hard for some to accept the reality of the energy of the individual 00 pellets.

However, comments have been made in reference to the effectiveness of a shotgun and one of the most definitive posts about that particular subject came from V2d (post #135) where as a former Crime Scene guy, he got to witness first-hand the effects of shotgun wounds. His real-world experiences are in sharp contrast with what "we" may have believed about the shotgun.

Sure, a shotgun can put out a lot of pellets in a short period of time, which I illustrate in this video I made about a gun camera. The rapid fire is about half way through the video.


The OP was not condemning the use of a shotgun nor making a statement of its effectiveness merely stating the facts about the energy in 00 pellets. The rest of my posts are an attempt to clarify that point as opposed to the OP being some kind of statement about the shotgun per se. To wit, from the OP, and I quote, "This doesn't in any way diminish the power of the shotgun,... "

Then from a subsequent post (my post #8), "I understand. But this really isn't about which shotgun load is the best. It's about how single pellets compare in energy to some pistol bullets. It's a bit of a conundrum, yet who can deny the effectiveness of a shotgun with the right load?"

And, I agree with your comparison, the 32 ACP fired from the 4.5" Scorpion barrel has about the same energy and momentum as a 00 pellet coming from an 18" 12 ga shotgun.
 

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It's not that I'm hung up on anything, it's that I have to keep explaining that this thread wasn't about the effectiveness of a shotgun. It specifically and singularly addresses the surprisingly low energy in 00 pellets. Obviously some infer that to be a statement about the effectiveness of a shotgun, which of course, if you read the OP, it is not about. It must be hard for some to accept the reality of the energy of the individual 00 pellets.

However, comments have been made in reference to the effectiveness of a shotgun and one of the most definitive posts about that particular subject came from V2d (post #135) where as a former Crime Scene guy, he got to witness first-hand the effects of shotgun wounds. His real-world experiences are in sharp contrast with what "we" may have believed about the shotgun.

Sure, a shotgun can put out a lot of pellets in a short period of time, which I illustrate in this video I made about a gun camera. The rapid fire is about half way through the video.


The OP was not condemning the use of a shotgun nor making a statement of its effectiveness merely stating the facts about the energy in 00 pellets. The rest of my posts are an attempt to clarify that point as opposed to the OP being some kind of statement about the shotgun per se. To wit, from the OP, and I quote, "This doesn't in any way diminish the power of the shotgun,... "

Then from a subsequent post (my post #8), "I understand. But this really isn't about which shotgun load is the best. It's about how single pellets compare in energy to some pistol bullets. It's a bit of a conundrum, yet who can deny the effectiveness of a shotgun with the right load?"

And, I agree with your comparison, the 32 ACP fired from the 4.5" Scorpion barrel has about the same energy and momentum as a 00 pellet coming from an 18" 12 ga shotgun.
Sounds good. I prefer full power 00 as I’ve read reports such as those mentioned of the reduced recoil loads lacking penetration when needed. I also like Brenneke and Foster slugs for certain applications, neither of which involve the defending of the home.
 

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All I know is I shot a life size silhouette at 25 yards. I had an 18" 12 ga using 00 buck, all 9 pellets landed in silhouette. I figure there is not a shot in my house as long as 25 yards so I think 00 buck would work well.
 

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If used in home defense you are only going to be a few yards away at most. My 00 buck has 12 pellets at 1290 ft/sec. when the pellets hit they will still be about the same velocity as they were at the muzzle. So let's say each pellet is similar to a .380. Id say 12 .380 rounds all at once in a small area center mass is a lot more than convincing. Plus it's not going to go through the bad guy and end up hitting someone else. Not to mention I could get a quick follow up. Test things out for yourself and pick what your comfortable with👍
 

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If used in home defense you are only going to be a few yards away at most. My 00 buck has 12 pellets at 1290 ft/sec. when the pellets hit they will still be about the same velocity as they were at the muzzle. So let's say each pellet is similar to a .380. Id say 12 .380 rounds all at once in a small area center mass is a lot more than convincing. Plus it's not going to go through the bad guy and end up hitting someone else. Not to mention I could get a quick follow up. Test things out for yourself and pick what your comfortable with👍
Actually at close range 00 Buck from a 12 gauge will go though someone. Been there....
 

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Yup....Years back I went to visit a LGS and didn't know the day before they had experienced a robbery....the shop was located in a older 2 story house with the shop on the first floor and offices on the second...anyway the owner is tellin' me, he's up stairs and hears somtin' movin' below. Being a Sunday the shop was closed, so he sneaks down the steps to see this fell stacking guns on the counter to rob...tells me he sets off the silent alarm and LEO's arrive and corner the guy in the shop but he makes a run for it getting to the front door..LE hits'em with a round of 00 sending him through the door, through the screen door and down the front steps...the owner told me what amazed him most was that the plastic wad was sticking through the BG's bicep when they got outside...
 

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Discussion Starter #155 (Edited)
I think I stated this before, but it seems that it's been missed so...

The title of the thread says, "...a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380"

It appears some are taking this to infer the .380 is as effective as a 12 ga shotgun. That is not and never was the point.

It was simply the reality of how much energy a single 12 gauge pellet has when fired from an 18" barrel compared to the energy of a .380 bullet fired from a 2" barrel.

This should in no way be taken to imply a 12 ga shotgun firing 9 pellets has no more power than a single .380 pistol round.

However, if one were hit by one 00 pellet fired from an 18" 12 ga shotgun, it would be similar to being hit with a .380 bullet.
 
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I think I smell something "Musty". Would also like to know if we are changing "SOME RULES" on D.C.?
 

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Where is the report button on this new and improved site????

Anybody?
Click on the three dots, upper right of the post in question.
 
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This zombie thread highlights why my "goto" 12 ga rounds are 000, not 00.
 
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Where is the report button on this new and improved site????

Anybody?
Want to complain about reviving an 8 year old thread? 😂 Maybe "something else"? W/H is right, Mike! Three dot's!
 

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This zombie thread highlights why my "goto" 12 ga rounds are 000, not 00.
W/H, "EXACTLY"! My conclusion also! Posted my load on the last thread: "What do you run in your home defense shotgun". That AND "BYE Earl!
 
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