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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few threads lately make me pose this as a topic. It appears that for some, going for their own gun is the default move, regardless of distance.

Yes, I do practice simple disarm techniques regularly, and teach them in my CHL certification classes.
 

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Over 20 years of Chinese Kenpo, and up till 6 years ago, was working on my 5th Degree Black. At that stage, I had learned over 9 disarming techniques.

I don’t practice anymore, but I still have the knowledge and muscle memory, but probably lacking the speed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Over 20 years of Chinese Kenpo, and up till 6 years ago, was working on my 5th Degree Black. At that stage, I had learned over 9 disarming techniques.

I don’t practice anymore, but I still have the knowledge and muscle memory, but probably lacking the speed.
Action still beats reaction.

Do you teach disarms to people you instruct?
 
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I've practiced a little but, but not enough. But at least enough to put it in the "option" category if someone is dumb enough to point a gun right in front of my face and keep his lips flapping. I am by no means proficient or skilled.

I've also practiced knife grappling (with rubber knives). That's a rather terrifying scenario - the one I do is going for the knife and then making the guy stab himself with it. You pretty much have to be ready for getting a few cuts yourself.

I hope to God I never have to try either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I've practiced a little but, but not enough. But at least enough to put it in the "option" category if someone is dumb enough to point a gun right in front of my face and keep his lips flapping. I am by no means proficient or skilled.

I've also practiced knife grappling (with rubber knives). That's a rather terrifying scenario - the one I do is going for the knife and then making the guy stab himself with it. You pretty much have to be ready for getting a few cuts yourself.

I hope to God I never have to try either.
I much prefer executing gun disarms.
 
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Action still beats reaction.

Do you teach disarms to people you instruct?
No. My focus is strictly combat style shooting with movement. That is difficult enough for most people, and the time is limited for that.
 

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I find most basic gun and knife disarms very impractical. Who is going to stand right in front of you and press the muzzle of the gun against your forehead? Who is going to do only a single knife thrust, like fencer? Hardly anyone. And why would you want to try to take his weapon? So you can wrestle him over it when he tries to take it back? Because you don't have a weapon of your own? Also, they all tend to rely on the ideas that a person with only a little training can deliver an untelegraphed move with lightning speed and that the defender will just stand there while they do it. I have learned and practiced those techniques, but I would not rely on them.

The better strategies I have seen involve taking advantage of the tunnel vision that an attacker will invariably get when using a weapon. Their mental focus, their perception of their own power, is that weapon. They tend to act as if they can no longer kick or punch. They have a need to keep the weapon in action, even if other strategies would serve them better. If you can get the weapon offline, even briefly, their reaction will be to focus all their attention on getting it back into action. They will be open to a disabling strike, which either can lead to more disabling strikes or deployment of your own weapon.
 

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I much prefer executing gun disarms.
Knife disarms are harder and I wouldn't rely on them either. Just as in my post above, I would concentrate on deflecting the blade with the back of my arm (so I don't get veins and arteries cut) and going on the offense with disabling strikes. Wrestling with someone with a knife would likely be a losing proposition, unless you can get him into an arm lock of his weapon arm, which takes a lot of skill and would be pretty risky at my level.

BTW, this idea of taking the weapon offline just long enough to disable is the basic approach of Krav Maga.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I find most basic gun and knife disarms very impractical. Who is going to stand right in front of you and press the muzzle of the gun against your forehead? Who is going to do only a single knife thrust, like fencer? Hardly anyone. And why would you want to try to take his weapon? So you can wrestle him over it when he tries to take it back? Because you don't have a weapon of your own? Also, they all tend to rely on the ideas that a person with only a little training can deliver an untelegraphed move with lightning speed and that the defender will just stand there while they do it. I have learned and practiced those techniques, but I would not rely on them.

The better strategies I have seen involve taking advantage of the tunnel vision that an attacker will invariably get when using a weapon. Their mental focus, their perception of their own power, is that weapon. They tend to act as if they can no longer kick or punch. They have a need to keep the weapon in action, even if other strategies would serve them better. If you can get the weapon offline, even briefly, their reaction will be to focus all their attention on getting it back into action. They will be open to a disabling strike, which either can lead to more disabling strikes or deployment of your own weapon.
If I can reach it, I like my odds of being able to take it. What's impractical about that? That muzzle to the forehead number is the one they use to impress the rubes. Somebody else mentioned knives, something not addressed in my original post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Knife disarms are harder and I wouldn't rely on them either. Just as in my post above, I would concentrate on deflecting the blade with the back of my arm (so I don't get veins and arteries cut) and going on the offense with disabling strikes. Wrestling with someone with a knife would likely be a losing proposition, unless you can get him into an arm lock of his weapon arm, which takes a lot of skill and would be pretty risky at my level.

BTW, this idea of taking the weapon offline just long enough to disable is the basic approach of Krav Maga.
So, you don't think Krav to be an effective tool to have in the box?


Again, I'll leave knives for someone else to start a thread on.
 

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So, you don't think Krav to be an effective tool to have in the box?
Again, I'll leave knives for someone else to start a thread on.
To the contrary, I do think that is the most effective strategy. I was just giving KM as an example of one system that teaches it.

I am, however, skeptical of the way KM is taught many places in the US. I have worked out with some experienced KM practitioners who I don't think would do well in a real situation. They are too focused on rote performance of the sequences.
 

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So, you don't think Krav to be an effective tool to have in the box?


Again, I'll leave knives for someone else to start a thread on.
Personally my opinion is that it is a highly risky maneuver, and very dependent on if things line up for it to even be feasible to execute....distance and positioning ect..

I think some knowledge and training is beneficial from the standpoint that if you did find yourself needing and deciding that is the only way out for you, that at least you have the knowledge.

But knowledge and skill are different of course.

I think it’s good to learn, but honestly, most older people are not going to desire to do the training and reps that give anywhere near a high percentage of success, due to time and interest.
 

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I think it’s good to learn, but honestly, most older people are not going to desire to do the training and reps that give anywhere near a high percentage of success, due to time and interest.
I agree that is probably true, but it is available to them nonetheless. I am older, and I'm all over it.

I think you could just as easily say the same about about older people and gun training.
 

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I find most basic gun and knife disarms very impractical. Who is going to stand right in front of you and press the muzzle of the gun against your forehead? Who is going to do only a single knife thrust, like fencer? Hardly anyone. And why would you want to try to take his weapon? So you can wrestle him over it when he tries to take it back? Because you don't have a weapon of your own? Also, they all tend to rely on the ideas that a person with only a little training can deliver an untelegraphed move with lightning speed and that the defender will just stand there while they do it. I have learned and practiced those techniques, but I would not rely on them.

The better strategies I have seen involve taking advantage of the tunnel vision that an attacker will invariably get when using a weapon. Their mental focus, their perception of their own power, is that weapon. They tend to act as if they can no longer kick or punch. They have a need to keep the weapon in action, even if other strategies would serve them better. If you can get the weapon offline, even briefly, their reaction will be to focus all their attention on getting it back into action. They will be open to a disabling strike, which either can lead to more disabling strikes or deployment of your own weapon.
I mentioned the knife grappling, only because I've practiced both that and gun disarm.

Impractical? In certain situations, certainly. In others, might be a viable option.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I think it’s good to learn, but honestly, most older people are not going to desire to do the training and reps that give anywhere near a high percentage of success, due to time and interest.
Fortunately for me, I'm not in that category of older people. The older I get, the more critical I believe essential skills to be.
 

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I agree that is probably true, but it is available to them nonetheless. I am older, and I'm all over it.

I think you could just as easily say the same about about older people and gun training.
Yes, and maybe I didn’t say it clearly, but that was actually the point I wanted to make.

Once people reach a certain age, they are either where they are comfortable with what they have, or just don’t see the need in going any further....or feel like it.
And then there is also the effort vs probability ratio for people across the board.
Time is precious and limited. I believe most people will do well just to train enough to develop a barely passing skill with the defensive handgun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

I'm sure most here have seen the embedded video before, but this one allows for stopping and restarting the video with an eye on the details. Check out how much time the victim closest to the shotgun had to respond to the shooter before the first and second rounds were fired. Then, check out how much time the second victim took in his attempt to stand and deliver. Finally, check out the time and actions for the parishioner who ended the situation.

I reiterate, disarms might well be the best option in some situations...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I agree that is probably true, but it is available to them nonetheless. I am older, and I'm all over it.

I think you could just as easily say the same about about older people and gun training.
No argument there, but those people aren't my target audience as I participate on this particular forum.
 
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Fortunately for me, I'm not in that category of older people. The older I get, the more critical I believe essential skills to be.
Im different. Even though I have it, the older I get, the less inclined I am to feel the need for certain things.....knife fighting and disarming techniques being two of them.
Because, my associations have changed, and my contact with certain people and places have become less required than the things I did or had to do when I was younger.
Kudos to those who desire such endeavors later in life, but I have other interests that are more priority.
 
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