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Discussion Starter #1
And other delusions of granduer :rofl:


Recently, the following comment was made in this thread http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...cussions/95644-permit-holder-encounter-3.html


A permit is somewhat like a badge, it should mean you are a cut above the rest, but it does not always work that way.
This was my initial response

No, it shouldn't and thinking that it should leads to the "sheepdog" myth and other delusions of grandeur. A permit should mean that you are an average law abiding citizens who has chosen to take a class, pay a fee and get a permit to conceal what he/she could carry openly with out all the hoops.
I can not understand the mindset that our status as permit holders makes us some kind of elite subset of the average law abiding citizenry.

In Colorado all I am required to do is present a DD214 or DD55A dated less than 10 years ago to the County Sheriff and I am deemed sufficiently trained to carry a concealed handgun. This doesn’t take into account that in my entire career I received no handgun training of any kind and never fired a hand gun once.

To be perfectly clear I don’t think anyone should be required to get a permit to conceal period. I’m just trying to make the point that it’s ridiculous to claim that mere possession of a CHP makes me some type of uber trained caped avenger.

Again, I believe that this type of thinking leads to the “sheep dog” myth which as I have stated several times before is (IMO) just a way for a certain type of permit holder to aggrandize themselves as a ‘defender of the flock”

I carry a gun to defend myself and my family. It doesn’t make me super citizen it certainly doesn’t make me a “certified good guy”. In fact if not for the fact that Nebraska seals juvenile records when you turn 21 I would be a prohibited person.

I’d like to hear some discussion on this; is your (generic) life so dull that you need to play Walter Mitty every time you pack?

Does having a CHP make you “A cut above”? If so what about Vermont? The state recognizes that its citizens have a right to self defense and allows them to make their own decisions concerning it W/ out government interference. Are concealed carriers in Vermont a “cut above’?
 

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The training I had in Colorado basically put the fear of the law into my head about ever using a gun on another person. More important then the gun part is learning about social dangers and why and how it is important to avoid them as much as possible. Knowing the law about self defense is something most people don't know very well.

The people who go through the process ARE a bit of a cut above the rest of the crowd in general. The filter process of getting a permit weeds out the lazy and a large amount of people who have proven they can't be trusted (with a gun or anything else for that matter) because of recorded bad actions. I doesn't make me a sheepdog (and how I hate that term) and it doesn't make those that choose not to get a permit sheep.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The filter process of getting a permit weeds out the lazy and a large amount of people who have proven they can't be trusted
I have a permit
 

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No, I already was a cut above!:king:
The carry permits just confirm that when it comes to carrying weapons I obey the law.
 

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Does having a CHP make you “A cut above”?
Nope. I am already a cut above. I am an intelligent, educated, hardworking, thinking, and voting person. I don't drink and drive and I don't attempt to murder police officers who stop me.

Treo- I agree with your assessment. A carry permit only means you were verified not to be a felon, possibly took a lame class, and paid your fee. Nothing more.

We all have personal standards. Even idiots. :bier:
 

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I am a cut above, but its not because of my permit, its because of my moral compass and my training. Continued education in anything is good for ones character. I understand what the OP is saying. It is up to the individual to make themselves more than the average citizen. Just my .02
 

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A permit makes you a cut above ONLY in the sense that it means that prior to your permit being issued, you had stayed out of trouble with the law.

Since it has been reported that 1 in 3 adult males has spent some time in jail at some point in their life, I guess staying out of trouble makes you (us) a cut above in that regard.

Otherwise, we all are the same. We all lie, cheat, steal, sin, do and say harmful things to others in one way or another. We just do it in very minor ways or in matters that keep it from getting to the attention of the law. We may not even think of some of our behaviors as cheating and stealing---e.g., using our boss's internet against company policy and wasting time (stealing time on the clock). Printing personal stuff at work using their paper.

Maybe we left a rental apartment with damage we didn't bring to the owner's attention. Or we sold a house with issues not adequately disclosed.

The list is endless. We are a cut above only that we have not come into the justice system or been brought to its attention.
 

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The only difference is that I accept responsibility for the safety of my loved ones and myself. Other than that I don't see myself as superior to another. And I did these things before being licensed by any civil authority.
 

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As I put on my armchair Psychologist coat,

allow me to answer your call for discussion. (Analysis is free, today, btw). Treo, you may want to ready your cutting torch at this point.

Firstly, your posts sounds angry.

Secondly, you seem to feel self loathing, as you may not feel qualified to carry a weapon, forget the legality, as you were 'grandfathered in' with only a DD214, but no formal training. If you did indeed receive such, you did not make that clear. If not, that can be resolved.

Thirdly, you mention a prior record in your youth. I wonder if you have feelings of inadequacy as a result of your past transgressions.

Just my take on your vehemently angry toned,(yes, imho) dissertation.

No flame suit needed here, as I am being honest with my thoughts, as you were with yours. Hence the discussion you requested. :wave: No, I am not a M.D., PhD., or any other form of expert. Also, I do not consider myself a sheepdog, or superior because of possessing a permit.
 

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in a sense I do think it shows that a person is a cut above the rest, but it depends on what state you're in

you said all you had to do was show your military docs and you get approved, well thats way different than in Texas
In Texas a CHL means you've passed local, state, and FBI background checks. No sealing of juvie records, and everyone (except LEO) must pass a shooting test. This does show you're different than the non-CHLs, and in a better way.
Does the CHL make you superman? no
does it make you a cop? no
does it make you bulletproof? no
does it make you incapable of committing crime? no

it does make you capable of legally carrying your pistol in a lot more situations so can be a sheepdog.....a sheepdog to protect yourself and your family (your flock, not the entire citizenry) from the wolves, one is a sheepdog for your mindset not because you own a piece of paper or plastic
This is the true meaning of the term sheepdog, not going around looking for criminals to pulverize. Protecting yourself/family from the threats.

so I think CHL holders are a cut above the rest in a sense, BUT should never hold it as a chip on their shoulder or think they are something they are not

A permit makes you a cut above ONLY in the sense that it means that prior to your permit being issued, you had stayed out of trouble with the law.

Since it has been reported that 1 in 3 adult males has spent some time in jail at some point in their life, I guess staying out of trouble makes you (us) a cut above in that regard.
agreed:hand10:
 

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Carry OK, I dont get that impression from his post at all. He's expressing doubt and concern over 'some' gun owners' attitudes.

I get those same feelings about a few issues....it stems from the fact that such people endanger our gun rights and can make us (CCers) look bad as a group. Not to mention just being plain dangerous.
 

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In some states, you need to prove you can shoot a gun and know the laws.....not too tough.

In some states you dont need to do either.

In some states, no matter what the laws, some women just stick a gun in their purse and go. Or men stick one in their pocket.

That license really doesnt mean much except a way of tracking us and making politicians feel better and bringing some $ into counties.
 

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Personally I think you took his comment outa context. I interpret it as; Most would think a permit holder is a law abiding citizen and that any kind of violent act such as described in the original thread would be a hellofa shock.

I do think I'm a cut above the average Job blow out there carrying his firearm illegally, but that's where it ends. To presume anything more is taking too much liberty with the unknown IMO.

GBK
 

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The posession of lethal force (CHP or not) SHOULD inherrantly necessitate a greater degree of personal responsibility. A higher standard of care, caution, respect, and maturity to de-escalate and walk away. In my personal opinion, a level of maturity that your original post sounds as if it is lacking.
 

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Although running away, yelling, and calling 911 are not bad options with regard to self-defense, my permit allows me an 'extra' option that gives me some 'additonal' peace of mind as well as a higher sense of responsibility that keeps me focused..:image035:
 

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Carry OK, I dont get that impression from his post at all. He's expressing doubt and concern over 'some' gun owners' attitudes.

I get those same feelings about a few issues....it stems from the fact that such people endanger our gun rights and can make us (CCers) look bad as a group. Not to mention just being plain dangerous.
I understand your point. However, in the post, the OP used multiple carricature (sp?) adjectives. 'Uber trained caped avenger, elite subset, certified good guy, Walter Mitty, iirc. That to my mind evokes the impression that I honestly expressed. I could of course be wrong. But, we all are, once or twice in our lifetimes, right?:wink:
 

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From my perspective as a dumb grunt working the streets is that when I do encounter some one with a valid CCW (not required here to carry) I know that at the very least that they aren't a felon, and chose to take a class and submit to a background check - therefore are more likely to be "on my side". This does not mean I let my guard down. So in my opinion being a CCW holder does put you a "cut above" until shown otherwise.

I think its fairly comparable to having a CDL as was posted by another member on the thread that spawned this one. Generally speaking CCW'ers much like CDL'ers have been through more training, have more "miles" under their belt, and take the added responsibility more seriously.

To be quite honest, I agree with TREO on one point - that is that you should not need a CCW to carry a concealed weapon. Until the laws change, it is what it is.
 

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The posession of lethal force (CHP or not) SHOULD inherrantly necessitate a greater degree of personal responsibility. A higher standard of care, caution, respect, and maturity to de-escalate and walk away.
These are my feelings on parenthood, but we cant infringe on peoples' right to restrict that, can we? And we sure cant make them better parents. :wink:

We really cant assume it about CC holders. either. As you said, we 'should' be able to, but the reality is that pretty much anyone without a felony record can get a permit. (or specific diagnosed mental condition....that one has loads of holes in it).

My hope is that when people do go out of their way to get a permit, that they do indeed take those responsibilities seriously...just like I hope they do about parenthood.

But that's why I have my signature line....there are risks in freedom...and it's up to us "personally" to be responsible, not for the govt to bind us with laws to 'protect us.'
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Clarification

you may not feel qualified to carry a weapon, forget the legality, as you were 'grandfathered in' with only a DD214, but no formal training. If you did indeed receive such, you did not make that clear. If not, that can be resolved.
I took a class W/ my wife so I did recieve the colorado legal minimum of training. I also was required to pass a CBI background check just like anyone who buys a gun, gets a merchant guard license or works W/ children in Colorado is required to.

I also have several credit hours worth of theraputic crisis intervention training, theraputic crisis management training, conflict resolution training, merchant guard legallities of use of force training, stress inoculation training, MOUT training and a couple of years or so of real world experience so I don't think my training is in the least inadequate. I was merely pointing out the lax requirements to obtain a permit in Colorado.

I'm more concerned W/ the attitude I find amoung several posters here that continually seek to aggrandize their status as permit holders.

As to the intent of the poster from the original thread I won't speculate. If he feels that I am taking his comment out of context he is welcome to join the discussion and clarify his position.
 

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Although running away, yelling, and calling 911 are not bad options with regard to self-defense, my permit allows me an 'extra' option that gives me some 'additonal' peace of mind as well as a higher sense of responsibility that keeps me focused..:image035:
VERY WELL SAID. :congrats:
 
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