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There's an nteresting article in Ammoland about focusing more on hits on target than on precision shooting.

"If you use a gun for concealed carry or home defense, tiny groups are not your friend."

When going to the range are we primarily shooting to impress our ego and those around us with how small our groups are, or are we practicing to use our guns for effective self defense?

On a two-way shooting or stabbing range, speed matters. That doesn't mean spray and pray, but neither does it mean holding 2" groups. I've long been a fan of using paper plates for targets. They're big enough to represent the vitals, and small enough to require combat accuracy, similar to using steel plates (which aren't allowed at many ranges).

IMO, yes precision shots are sometimes needed and should be practiced too, but not at the exclusion of also practicing quick and effective hits. Both sets of skills are important to work on.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/why-you-shouldnt-shoot-small-groups-defensive-pistol-training/#axzz5yHLEQXUy
 

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I mostly shoot for speed and hits in the nose to nipples triangle (the normal paper plates are a great size I think) but, I also like to challenge myself to longer distance say 50 yards which requires slower and more concentrated effort for me. I agree that both can be good skills to get sharpened.
 

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Sounds like he has just discovered combat shooting, and wants to tell everyone about it.

Is there a difference in target shooting and defensive shooting practice? Well....duh!
 

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I agree. When I practice, it's most always 1,2,or 3 shots from the draw, flash sight picture, point shooting, and such. I rarely ever slow fire for groups. I try to make each practice session as realistic as possible.

Mr. BG certainly isn't gonna stand there and let you see how tight of a group you can put on him.
 

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Yep. I use either paper plates or the 8" splatter targets. Put one up against your chest and that's gonna cover the vitals. Every once in a while I'll use an 18X26" silhouette, but not so much anymore.
 

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I agree. When I practice, it's most always 1,2,or 3 shots from the draw, flash sight picture, point shooting, and such. I rarely ever slow fire for groups. I try to make each practice session as realistic as possible.

Mr. BG certainly isn't gonna stand there and let you see how tight of a group you can put on him.
Spot on correct with this. I do the same thing as you do at a range.
 

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There's an nteresting article in Ammoland about focusing more on hits on target than on precision shooting.

"If you use a gun for concealed carry or home defense, tiny groups are not your friend."

When going to the range are we primarily shooting to impress our ego and those around us with how small our groups are, or are we practicing to use our guns for effective self defense?

On a two-way shooting or stabbing range, speed matters. That doesn't mean spray and pray, but neither does it mean holding 2" groups. I've long been a fan of using paper plates for targets. They're big enough to represent the vitals, and small enough to require combat accuracy, similar to using steel plates (which aren't allowed at many ranges).

IMO, yes precision shots are sometimes needed and should be practiced too, but not at the exclusion of also practicing quick and effective hits. Both sets of skills are important to work on.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/why-you-shouldnt-shoot-small-groups-defensive-pistol-training/#axzz5yHLEQXUy
I believe you and I have discussed this before. I also use paper plates in two sizes: 9 inch and six inch. Most of my shooting involves the six inch plates at distances from 12 to 15 feet. I go through a series of drills which entails having the target "flip" from an edge presentation to a face presentation and back. I generally allow two seconds of face time to get two shots off on single plates and three shots off on two plates, or a plate an an large plain index card. I reserve the 9 inch plates for greater distances and for the triple five drill (five shots in five seconds at five yards).

My drills consist of shooting from the draw, from a high compressed ready position, and when doing reloads (two shots, go empty, reload, then two more shots, two seconds allowed for all of this). I have done one second drills for two shots from a high compressed ready position but that is a stretch. I can easily get off two shots in two seconds from a concealed draw.

My theory is simple and pretty much mirrors the attached article. I believe that your first shot (hit) is your most important one in that it buys you a little extra time to get off subsequent shots. Any hit is going to have some effect, even if it is only for a second. In that second you should be able to get off two or three more shots. I do not do the classic align sights, obtain sight picture, and squeeze the trigger. That takes time and time is not going to be my friend if I have to employ my sidearm like RIGHT NOW. I get my gun out and on my target and pull the trigger. While I "see" the front sight, I don't waste time trying to center it or anything of the sort. It is far more like point shooting and has become quite natural for me. I don't worry about tight groups; I worry about getting my gun out and getting effective shots off in as little time as possible.
 

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I practice a technique taught to me in the Corps one 60 years ago. Front sight on center and right below the breastbone. Then a triple tap with no sight adjustment after the first shot. Let the gun ride up. Depending upon factors, if you can keep the gun centered while it rises, you will make a string of wound that start at the original point and creep up. So a hit below the breastbone will likely put the third round near or in the lower neck.
 

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For my range sessions, I utilize IDPA targets with the current scoring rings of 3" & 6" head and body. We reshape the volume of the exposed area thus targets half-width, shoulder to waist diagonal and half height. We simply don't shoot slow fire thus rapid fire at 10-7-&-3-Yds. The EDC is a S&W 9X19mm Shield. Also we include movement. The sight picture is basically a mix of sighted and indexing the weapon outline on the intended target area dependent on distance. We manage to keep our eyes open seeing the muzzle flip in recoil and etcetera- etcetera.
 

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Sadly this says a lot about the skill of the person writing this drivel:

"If you use a gun for concealed carry or home defense, tiny groups are not your friend."
Placing your shots may well be the most critical skill lacking in many people who carry for self defense. Anybody can shoot fast. Not many can shoot fast AND accurately. And tiny groups ARE your friend if the first shot doesn't stop the threat.

IMO, yes precision shots are sometimes needed and should be practiced too, but not at the exclusion of also practicing quick and effective hits. Both sets of skills are important to work on.
Yes...Here is the truth. Brother, you should be writing for Ammoland.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Sounds like he has just discovered combat shooting, and wants to tell everyone about it.

Is there a difference in target shooting and defensive shooting practice? Well....duh!
To most of us here on DC that's a statement of the obvious, but across the greater gundom it may not be so obvious.

For example, in the lane next to me on my last range trip were two guys shooting at full sized silhouette targets at 5 yards. They were taking carefully aimed shots, and made tidy 2 inch holes on the center X. It was decent shooting and they were handling their guns safely. Then one guy said to the other "that bad guy wouldn't stand a chance." In reality a guy with a knife at 5 yards could have sliced their necks open in the time it took for their first shots, but they seemed happy with their little groups.
 

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There's an nteresting article in Ammoland about focusing more on hits on target than on precision shooting.

"If you use a gun for concealed carry or home defense, tiny groups are not your friend."

When going to the range are we primarily shooting to impress our ego and those around us with how small our groups are, or are we practicing to use our guns for effective self defense?

On a two-way shooting or stabbing range, speed matters. That doesn't mean spray and pray, but neither does it mean holding 2" groups. I've long been a fan of using paper plates for targets. They're big enough to represent the vitals, and small enough to require combat accuracy, similar to using steel plates (which aren't allowed at many ranges).

IMO, yes precision shots are sometimes needed and should be practiced too, but not at the exclusion of also practicing quick and effective hits. Both sets of skills are important to work on.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/why-you-shouldnt-shoot-small-groups-defensive-pistol-training/#axzz5yHLEQXUy

IMHO this thought process is circular. Eventually, a few years form now after going to more training and putting more rounds down range, you'll probably here things form the same writer that say "speed is fine but accuracy is final" -Wyatt Earp our whoever said it. People will talk about just getting hits, then after you really dive into it and learn really how to shoot, you find out that you can be surgical in shooting ability as well as be fast. The biggest part of this is knowing when you need to be precise and when you need to be fast, and knowing how to pull the trigger quickly without disturbing site alignment and how to shoot precisely and not rush.

Most people can only do one and aren't very good at it let alone perform both and be able to switch back and forth. Than once you master that, try and do it with your opposite hand.
 

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Sounds like he has just discovered combat shooting, and wants to tell everyone about it.

Is there a difference in target shooting and defensive shooting practice? Well....duh!
Gun writers gotta write about something, no?
 

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IMHO this thought process is circular. Eventually, a few years form now after going to more training and putting more rounds down range, you'll probably here things form the same writer that say "speed is fine but accuracy is final" -Wyatt Earp our whoever said it. People will talk about just getting hits, then after you really dive into it and learn really how to shoot, you find out that you can be surgical in shooting ability as well as be fast. The biggest part of this is knowing when you need to be precise and when you need to be fast, and knowing how to pull the trigger quickly without disturbing site alignment and how to shoot precisely and not rush.

Most people can only do one and aren't very good at it let alone perform both and be able to switch back and forth. Than once you master that, try and do it with your opposite hand.
Mr. Earp is also credited with saying, "Take your time... quickly."
 

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Discussion Starter #16
@OldChap said it for me before I got here to read all the replies.
SG, you usually manage to phrase something in a way that brings out a different but important angle. That's one of the reasons I enjoy this place, plenty of wisdom to absorb.
 

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Sadly this says a lot about the skill of the person writing this drivel:



Placing your shots may well be the most critical skill lacking in many people who carry for self defense. Anybody can shoot fast. Not many can shoot fast AND accurately. And tiny groups ARE your friend if the first shot doesn't stop the threat.



Yes...Here is the truth. Brother, you should be writing for Ammoland.
I think some may be missing his take on this subject. I seriously doubt if he, or any knowledgeable person, would suggest that someone who enters into this world of SD shooting should forget about accuracy and go directly to shooting as fast as they can. To me, that would be borderline lunacy. If one can manage one to two inch groups in rapid fire at, say four or five yards, they've clearly put in some time and are doing well with their sidearm. Even three inch groups are not going to put you in the shooter's doghouse when trying to hit a target in two seconds with three shots from the draw.

Perhaps the writer should have elaborated on this a bit more in order to dispel any raised eyebrows from those thinking he was advocating to just jump in and start shooting.

When I hit the range, I fire 10 or 15 rounds out of each gun I take for warm up. This is slower and more deliberate fire mostly to see how I am going to be doing over the next hour and what sort of day I think I'm going to have with my gun and my efforts. This also tells me what I may want to concentrate on that day and what drills I may want to work on more to get myself up to where I want to be. Then I finish off my range time with a group or two as a wrapup. I have already written about where I stand on this topic so I won't belabor that again. If I have to pull my gun and use it, I want to have the training and muscle memory in place to get it on target and starting shooting as quickly as I can. That's how I train with my drills and it works for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
IMHO this thought process is circular. Eventually, a few years form now after going to more training and putting more rounds down range, you'll probably here things form the same writer that say "speed is fine but accuracy is final" -Wyatt Earp our whoever said it. People will talk about just getting hits, then after you really dive into it and learn really how to shoot, you find out that you can be surgical in shooting ability as well as be fast. The biggest part of this is knowing when you need to be precise and when you need to be fast, and knowing how to pull the trigger quickly without disturbing site alignment and how to shoot precisely and not rush.

Most people can only do one and aren't very good at it let alone perform both and be able to switch back and forth. Than once you master that, try and do it with your opposite hand.
It is very circular. For people not at the apex, its probably wise to work on both speed and accuracy rather than focusing on one at the exclusion of the other.
 

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Sounds like he has just discovered combat shooting, and wants to tell everyone about it.

Is there a difference in target shooting and defensive shooting practice? Well....duh!
I agree, but having been a competitive target shooter, I think there are things target shooting can teach that combat shooters would not be hurt by learning, such as sight focus and trigger control. You don't need a 2" group in a gunfight, but a 2" group when you are not under stress could easily turn into a 20" group under fire. At distance, "minute of angle" can become "minute of bad guy." Look at all the many LE shootings where a cop empties a full mag at close range and none of the rounds hit. That is certainly a mindset thing that target shooting can't teach, but it is also the fundamentals of marksmanship, which target shooting can teach.
 
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