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Tiny groups are for target shooting.
 

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To most of us here on DC that's a statement of the obvious, but across the greater gundom it may not be so obvious.

For example, in the lane next to me on my last range trip were two guys shooting at full sized silhouette targets at 5 yards. They were taking carefully aimed shots, and made tidy 2 inch holes on the center X. It was decent shooting and they were handling their guns safely. Then one guy said to the other "that bad guy wouldn't stand a chance." In reality a guy with a knife at 5 yards could have sliced their necks open in the time it took for their first shots, but they seemed happy with their little groups.
Yep. I get it. But the reverse is to think that just because one is shooting tiny groups, that they are a one trick pony.
 

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To most of us here on DC that's a statement of the obvious, but across the greater gundom it may not be so obvious.

For example, in the lane next to me on my last range trip were two guys shooting at full sized silhouette targets at 5 yards. They were taking carefully aimed shots, and made tidy 2 inch holes on the center X. It was decent shooting and they were handling their guns safely. Then one guy said to the other "that bad guy wouldn't stand a chance." In reality a guy with a knife at 5 yards could have sliced their necks open in the time it took for their first shots, but they seemed happy with their little groups.

I hate to bust your bubble but there are very few people who carry a gun for self defense who do not grasp the difference between playing around on the range for fun and downing a badguy. Not many people who are facing a badguy are going to stand there for 25 second with controlled breathing as they slowly articulate a trigger and all the while noticing every gritty or spongy nuance of that process. Those same people are not likely to have the same expectation while they are goofing around on the range as they would in a dark hallway facing a home invader. People do not care about groups when they are defending their life, they simply want to land hits on target.


As far as the guys who were next to you at the range, you cant possible develop a merited hypothesis regarding their mental processes or fighting methodology from such superficial banter. It certainly would not be fair to make any sort of judgement regarding their idea of self defense shooting. Perhaps they were just goofing around and talking crap.

I like to goof around on the range sometimes( just like the guys next to you). I simply like to remind myself that I have a decent grasp of basic marksmanship and can actually control my gun well enough to hit a smallish target. That is not how I train and during training my targets are generally a mess. If I can keep the majority in a 10 inch group while on the move, I am doing just great. Even then, I will still have some hits on target that are outside of that boundary.

I train for real life and not ego.

Sure, I could elect to disregard the potential danger that a target is supposed to represent. I could marginalize critical tactics and simply stand and shoot where optimal, comfortable and ultimately land better shots .. but that is not how real life unfolds. In real life, the first inclination that you are in trouble is when the pavement smacks you in the face or you suddenly realize that you are talking incoming. There is no ready set go.. its just instantaneous chaos which likely occurs at the worst time and when you are in the worst position to deal with it. If a person wants to train, I say train for that. If you want to goof around on the range, there is nothing wrong with that either. Everyone does it, me, you everyone.. we should probably be able to have some fun without someone passing too critical a judgment of us.

A little thing about the 2" group:

If you can shoot a 2" group under perfect conditions, you can probably shoot a 10 group under stress and on the move
If your shooting is a mess under perfect conditions, you are probably missing the target entirely while under stress and on the move.
just something to think about.
 

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Yep. I get it. But the reverse is to think that just because one is shooting tiny groups, that they are a one trick pony.
Of course. Those guys might have been able to surprise me with speed skills too, after all, they were able to get decent precision groups. They just didn't give me the impression quick shots were of any concern.
 

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I've said on occasion that I've shot enough Bullseye courses of fire to fill a 55 Gal drum with the empties thus I'm will versed in the fundamentals'. When I shoot at 3-7-&-10yards, its all rapid fire with reasonable accuracy!
 

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What's wrong with paper plates, especially when you move them in increments to 50 yards. Cheaper and good enough for what I want to achieve.
 

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You got to walk before you run.. I like point shooting out to 15 yards ; ) PS After you master trigger control.
H/D
 

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In years of shooting semi-informal IDPA type matches, I learned that there was a point where pushing myself a bit too much for speed destroyed my accuracy. Then it was time to back off a bit, increasing the speed in smaller increments. It worked for me then and still does.

Age and physical problems have taken a toll on my speed but I'm still pretty darned accurate. I HATE those tiny 1/2" to 1 1/2" dot torture test targets though. To me a 2" x 3" group (shooting double taps or triple taps) at what is general considered self defense distances is acceptable. If I could do better, of course I would.
 

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What's wrong with paper plates, especially when you move them in increments to 50 yards. Cheaper and good enough for what I want to achieve.
At fifty yards, shooting a paper plate is a dot torture exercise.
 

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I don't follow a lot of gun/shooting channels on y-tube, but on of my favorites is T.Rex Arms. There was a video titled "Why you should miss when shooting". This combines accuracy and speed, start off slow and accurate, then speed up till you miss, this is your breaking point. Now you go back and figure out why you missed and train till you can go further. There will come a point to where you can't be accurate when shooting your fastest and this will be the limits of your abilities. Can you shoot faster? Yes, but at what cost. I am no where near the shooter Lucas is, but I'm working myself there. I don't have a shot timer, but my son or wife helps me out with a stop watch. With my AR, I can go pretty fast with groups in the X and 10 rings on a B-27 target. I can keep this same level of accuracy out to 50 yrds, but with a more slower rate of fire. I also have the same level of accuracy with my carry pistol out to 12 feet. Once my shots start to open up more than that, I slow back down and work myself back up. Speed means nothing if you don't have the accuracy to go with it. If you are only capable of going a certain speed while keeping your accuracy, then you will have to face that fact and keep shooting at that level. As one gets older, you will loose eye sight and/or muscular movements, this will further decrease your speed and accuracy and will have to make changes in the firearms you shoot and the way you shoot.
 

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Gotta put the front site somewhere. I choose the center of mass of the target as presented. On the square, I just shoot out the center and start spiraling out when my shots pass through the hole leaving no confirmation of hit. At least behind this keyboard. :image035:
I would go vertical to stop a threat.
 

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There's an nteresting article in Ammoland about focusing more on hits on target than on precision shooting.

"If you use a gun for concealed carry or home defense, tiny groups are not your friend."

When going to the range are we primarily shooting to impress our ego and those around us with how small our groups are, or are we practicing to use our guns for effective self defense?

On a two-way shooting or stabbing range, speed matters. That doesn't mean spray and pray, but neither does it mean holding 2" groups. I've long been a fan of using paper plates for targets. They're big enough to represent the vitals, and small enough to require combat accuracy, similar to using steel plates (which aren't allowed at many ranges).

IMO, yes precision shots are sometimes needed and should be practiced too, but not at the exclusion of also practicing quick and effective hits. Both sets of skills are important to work on.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/why-you-shouldnt-shoot-small-groups-defensive-pistol-training/#axzz5yHLEQXUy
Even better...Handgun range practice at 100 yards...Talk about a ego feeder not related to self defense....Not impressed....Anyone
with enough time and ammo can figure the hold over to lob a bullet on a target at 100 yards.
 

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The question as I see it is....

What size group is needed for the situation you are in and face?

The way I see it is, that at no time should technique dictate the situation but rather the situation should dictate the technique require to handle that which you face.
 

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The question as I see it is....

What size group is needed for the situation you are in and face?

The way I see it is, that at no time should technique dictate the situation but rather the situation should dictate the technique require to handle that which you face.
A good technique is one that is adaptable to any situation.

The real problem with technique is that most people will never really put enough effort in to developing it, but go thru life thinking they have it, until the situation shows them they do not.
 

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Even better...Handgun range practice at 100 yards...Talk about a ego feeder not related to self defense....Not impressed....Anyone
with enough time and ammo can figure the hold over to lob a bullet on a target at 100 yards.
Actually, that statement demonstrates some ignorance.

First of all, to say that long distance practice is not related to self defense, is a blanket statement, and rather a foolish one at that, clearly corrected and debunked by several actual cases.

Additionally, long distance shooting is good for the ego; it’s what those in the know refer to as a “ confidence booster”, which is a very important tool in the teaching and development of basic skills. Obviously you do not understand that shooting is by far a mental exercise.
 

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Any day I can go to the range and keep all shots in paper plate-sized target without hitting my foot or someone else's is a good day. You don't want to be at the range on my bad days.
 

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A good technique is one that is adaptable to any situation.

The real problem with technique is that most people will never really put enough effort in to developing it, but go thru life thinking they have it, until the situation shows them they do not.
Gman, are you trying to tell me that the same technique is the best one to use from contact to 100 yds?

Don't buy it! Some situations call for speed while others call for threading the needle, each one takes different skills. In any sport you need more than ONE skill. The dunk, foul line shooter or the lay up shooter does not win the game by their selves. It takes a well round game to win in any skill based situation, be it sports or a happening on the street.

Yes one skill can win if you are in a situation but have more than one and THEN knowing when to use the right skills is the ticket for winning more of them.

Just my thoughts and I know yours doesn't follow the same thought pattern. I go from seeing what you need to see to my the hits you need to make, at the time you need to make them. You think sights, sights and more sights.

Is either one of our thoughts on the subject right for everyone? NO!! Each person needs to make up their own minds and then they have to live or die with it. As we all do...
 

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I shoot so many different guns, and just shooting in general, I don't always go to the range to practice anything particular. But no matter what I do, every time I go, I always start out with at least one magazine with my EDC, all inside 10 yards. I finish the same way.
 

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Even better...Handgun range practice at 100 yards...Talk about a ego feeder not related to self defense....Not impressed....Anyone
with enough time and ammo can figure the hold over to lob a bullet on a target at 100 yards.
Pictures, or it didn't happen.
 
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