[Aztex]

Hi,

I have been CCW for a few months but just took the class for the license here is AZ.

One of the things the instructor harped about was "Don't Talk to Cops!"

Previously I had been doing my own reading and study and was gathering the best approach was if possible:

a) Be the guy who calls 911
b) Tell the cops you want to file a complaint against the BG you just shot.

The idea being there is one victim and one perp in a crime so you better be the victim from the git go. THIS makes a lot of sense to me and I beleive M. Ayoob suggests this as well.

Obviously these are diametrically opposed approaches...you can't silently explain you were attacked or say "I'll tell you tomorrow with my lawyer" if you're claiming to have been attacked.

Or can you?


I know it's not quite like taking the 5A as in a trial and perhaps you give an over view and then say, I'll meet with cops tomorrow with my lawyer.

I really need to take a class on the legality of this. Our CCW class was only 5 hours of class time and a lot wasted on what I'd call less important.

Thanks,

AzTex

 

[9MMare]

There is some pretty standard, legally-based advice on this.

Absolutely cooperate with the police. Even if they treat you like the aggressor.

But know what to limit your dialogue to and who to call.

 

[gasmitty]

Mas Ayoob ran a number of his MAG-20 and MAG-40 classes in the Fort Huachuca area for several years running, but that's not on his 2017 schedule. If you can travel, I highly recommend his course - worth every nickel. Check out the schedule here: When & Where - Massad Ayoob Group

Mas was a sworn LE officer for a boatload of years, but he's also savvy about the rights of the legally armed citizen. You've gotten the tip of the iceberg - he's not saying "don't say anything" to the responding officers on the scene, his point is that you, the victim, need to point out the "active dynamic." Let the LEOs know where the BG was, what he said, why you felt threatened, which direction you shot, etc. Just the basics, and then zip the lip for a day or more until you've met with your attorney. Avoid "logorrhea" - diarrhea of the mouth!

 

[Bigsteve113]

In my experience, if you're innocent.....talk to them and straighten things out ! If you're guilty of something, remain silent and get a lawyer !

 

[gasmitty]

In my experience, if you're innocent.....talk to them and straighten things out ! If you're guilty of something, remain silent and get a lawyer !

That didn't work out too well for Harold Fish. Trail of evidence - Dateline NBC - Crime reports - Trail of Evidence | NBC News

 

[Danielst]

I in general find the notion stupid,. like not to talk to cops,. I just don't believe that their whole job is to get you into jail.
say what you need to say and the rest will be done in court anyways,. I think that in a real incident their are certain reservations anyway because of the adrenaline rush of afterwards.
stay safe ;-)

 

[patkelly4370]

"That person/those people attacked me.
I defended my life.
I have a heart condition (I really do).
I'm not feeling well and would like to go to the hospital.
I'll give a statement when I'm feeling better."
I practice this statement as much as I do draw/dry fire drills.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Mike1956]

In my experience, if you're innocent.....talk to them and straighten things out ! If you're guilty of something, remain silent and get a lawyer !

And what specific experience is that? Nothing you say is going to talk the cops out of arresting you if the evidence indicates a possibility you might have done something wrong. Everything you say (or the cops testify that you said) will be used against you if it gets to court.

 

[Mike1956]

I in general find the notion stupid,. like not to talk to cops,. I just don't believe that their whole job is to get you into jail.
say what you need to say and the rest will be done in court anyways,. I think that in a real incident their are certain reservations anyway because of the adrenaline rush of afterwards.
stay safe ;-)

That alone should encourage one's silence immediately after the event beyond a basic recounting of the facts of the incident. Police officers are expected to wait for up to seventy-two hours before giving a complete statement after a lethal force encounter.

 

[Mike1956]

"That person/those people attacked me.
I defended my life.
I have a heart condition (I really do).
I'm not feeling well and would like to go to the hospital.
I'll give a statement when I'm feeling better."
I practice this statement as much as I do draw/dry fire drills.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

The only thing I don't like about Mas' advice on this it that it sounds contrived and rehearsed before the fact. Right idea, IMO, but too boilerplate.

 

[AzQkr]

That alone should encourage one's silence immediately after the event beyond a basic recounting of the facts of the incident. Police officers are expected to wait for up to seventy-two hours before giving a complete statement after a lethal force encounter.

And there's the key point I was hoping someone addressed as i read through this thread and was about to respond Mike. Studies indicate an leo may believe he's telling the events in correct order, pass a poly he believes what he is stating and the evidence demonstrates the officer isn't recounting accurately. Now it's suggested and in some places implemented that leo's will not be expected to give a full statement until 48-72 hours have passed.

If the above is being instituted for leo's based on research findings, then us ccw'ers would be well advised to understand the physiology behind why they are advised to wait and lea's all over the country adopting such practice.

Do you follow FSI findings/research as well?>

 

[Dougb]

Cops, as human beings, tend to hear what they want. That may not be what you said. And having gone through a traumatic life or death experience, what you say may not be what you mean. Cops usually don't talk until they have legal representation and from what I understand, they frequently wait a day or two. They have more rights than you in a shooting and a stronger presumption of "justified" than you will have.
Also, it is known that the eye witness is not a reliable source of information. Forensics and film are better. Your immediate impressions need some sorting, and choice of words will become important quickly.

My suggestion, based on nothing, is give the bare details (He threatened me, I feared for my life, he showed a weapon, I had to shoot. Those people were witnesses. That is his weapon, I need to go to the hospital and have my heart checked by my cardiologist. My lawyer and I will talk to you as soon as possible). A closed mouth gathers no foot, and as you will probably need a lawyer anyway, get a lawyer involved before you mis speak and make things worse.

Polygraphs can be beaten and are not statistically reliable. Lots of states don't allow them as evidence, and using one after shooting someone seems like a bad time to learn.

Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies.

http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx

 

[dp1911]

Assuming you were in the right of a self defense shooting...you tell the cops "I was afraid for my life and defended myself" and leave it at that OR say nothing other than "I want to speak with my lawyer"?

I've heard/read a few different things to do. I absolutely do not want to be the guy that is in the right, but gets put away because of something I said.

 

[AzQkr]

Cops, as human beings, tend to hear what they want. That may not be what you said. And having gone through a traumatic life or death experience, what you say may not be what you mean. Cops usually don't talk until they have legal representation and from what I understand, they frequently wait a day or two. They have more rights than you in a shooting and a stronger presumption of "justified" than you will have.

Boy oh boy, I sure could use a cite on that statement. It's my belief, having served in that role, that the leo is under far more scrutiny by more people/entities than the non leo citizen. Citizens don't stand IA investigations, whether they followed SOPs to the letter or not, don't get put on paid admin leave, get a union rep and atty who will represent them for free, and probably several other disadvantages I've not thought of over the non leo citizen.

Also, it is known that the eye witness is not a reliable source of information. Forensics and film are better. Your immediate impressions need some sorting, and choice of words will become important quickly.

My suggestion, based on nothing, is give the bare details (He threatened me, I feared for my life, he showed a weapon, I had to shoot. Those people were witnesses. That is his weapon, I need to go to the hospital and have my heart checked by my cardiologist.

One better have a heart condition and cardiologist attending when they utter those words

My lawyer and I will talk to you as soon as possible). A closed mouth gathers no foot, and as you will probably need a lawyer anyway, get a lawyer involved before you mis speak and make things worse.

bolded

 

[Rhinoman]

There is some pretty standard, legally-based advice on this.

Absolutely cooperate with the police. Even if they treat you like the aggressor.

But know what to limit your dialogue to and who to call.

I agree with you. We should put our selves in the cop's shoes. He just arrived on scene and there's a dead body and you're holding a gun. He doesn't know anything and has to assume the worst. I have no problem with them assuming the worst and treating me with caution until they get things sorted out. Almost every person they come in contact with is going to insist they are innocent or justified in their actions.

I agree with the OP, too. I would provide the minimum amount of information necessary until my attorney was present. I had two friends end up in prison based solely on their own statements. Their attorney got every other piece of evidence thrown out because of violations of their rights.

 

[AzQkr]

I agree with you. We should put our selves in the cop's shoes. He just arrived on scene and there's a dead body and you're holding a gun. He doesn't know anything and has to assume the worst. I have no problem with them assuming the worst and treating me with caution until they get things sorted out. Almost every person they come in contact with is going to insist they are innocent or justified in their actions.

I agree with the OP, too. I would provide the minimum amount of information necessary until my attorney was present. I had two friends end up in prison based solely on their own statements. Their attorney got every other piece of evidence thrown out because of violations of their rights.

A very prominent drug atty I worked for once told me to never forget the following

"Big fish get to be big fish because they keep their mouth shut"

 

[ghost tracker]

An acquaintance was pulled-over for a suspected DUI in Houston. As the LEO requested license & registration, the individual began "signing" (non-verbal communication for the speech/hearing impaired). The LEO called his supervisor for how to proceed? Calls were made, an American Sign translator was dispatched to the roadside scene. My acquaintance kept repeating the same 6-letter sequence. Upon arrival, the translator went to the driver's window & began to interpret... "L" - "A" - "W" - "Y" - "E" - "R". On later discovering that my acquaintance could both hear AND speak, they threw THE BOOK at him! :blink:

 

[Mike1956]

An acquaintance was pulled-over for a suspected DUI in Houston. As the LEO requested license & registration, the individual began "signing" (non-verbal communication for the speech/hearing impaired). The LEO called his supervisor for how to proceed? Calls were made, an American Sign translator was dispatched to the roadside scene. My acquaintance kept repeating the same 6-letter sequence. Upon arrival, the translator went to the driver's window & began to interpret... "L" - "A" - "W" - "Y" - "E" - "R". On later discovering that my acquaintance could both hear AND speak, they threw THE BOOK at him! :blink:

Classic!

 

[Mike1956]

This has been posted before, but still constitutes the best free legal counsel I have ever seen:

 

[Dave909]

The only thing I don't like about Mas' advice on this it that it sounds contrived and rehearsed before the fact. Right idea, IMO, but too boilerplate.

That's my problem with most of the advice given by a lot of instructors in legal matters (and my problem with a lot of training classes), it is too rehearsed. The more that you sound and act like you had everything planned out in advance, the more an experienced (or twitchy) officer is going to suspect something is up. Sound or act like that once inside the court room and they'll have a field day with you. Cooperate and only answer the questions you're asked at the scene. Don't start running your mouth and going over every single second of the encounter before the officer has even gotten out the door of their cruiser. Just stay calm, tell them what happened and then start bringing your lawyer into it. And for damn sure make certain that your conversation with the officer matches up with what you tell your lawyer. Leave not one iota of details out.