[BigSkyGuy]

when training with my browning high power ive always practiced the "double tap" because in general i dont fully trust the effectiveness of the 9mm round. now i dont wish to turn this into a "9mm vs. .45acp" debate.....i know there are some quality hot 9mm rounds available but for whatever reason if im not confident in it, im just not confident in it. ive also trained to double tap my ar15 because regardless of what the numbers say, its still a .22 calibler projectile and i feel more confident in hitting my target with more than one.

when training with my 1911s however, ive never bothered with practicing the double tap because:

1) i fully believe in the capability of the .45acp round
2) i fully believe in my ability to hit my target exactly where i intended to hit it with my 1911
3) the capacity of a 1911 doesnt leave a lot of room for double tapping

that said, these days im carrying a hi capacity (13 rounds) hk usp .45. the high capacity would afford me more room for double tapping, but i wonder how necessary it really is. i understand the importance of the ability to hit with a follow up shot if necessary, but im wondering if others feel its necessary to train to instinctually double tap a .45?
thanks,

 

[OD*]

but im wondering if others feel its necessary to train to instinctually double tap a .45?

I feel you shoot the threat to the ground, it may take one, it may take your 13? :wink:

 

[BigSkyGuy]

i agree.....but training for double tap is to make firing twice instinctual, before you even assess what the first shot did (assuming superior accuracy on both shots). do you feel this is really necessary with the .45?
thanks,

 

[gunthorp]

Certainly the hunter using a single shot rifle is indeed conscious of shot placement. Although reloading quickly can be mastered with a little practice (by little I mean 100 times,) limited capacity necessitates prioritizing and accuracy. Remember the study that gives the 45 acp and the 357 mag 95% and 96% one shot stopping scores? Well the extra practice needed to shoot those "man-stoppers" may have improved the shooter's shot placement. It may have been the shot placement that was proving to be the man stopper, not the cartridge.

A hi-cap can give a false sense of security, and make one sloppy in hold and trigger control. There's a waste of ammo. In a situation where BG's are travelling in a pack, observation, target acquisition, and shot placement (OODA) needs to loop at high speed.

OD is right about shooting until the threat is stopped. I practice fast pairs with the 45, and an aimed third. I would never take the time for the aimed third when facing multiple threats, but I would hope a good double will slow down BG#1 until I could clean up in a second or two. I have taken to aiming at the pelvis with the first shot and aiming at very high center of mass with the second. Using the gun's recoil helps the second shot, as long as it's well centered to hit the spine high. I use two peices of typing paper placed about 6" one above the other so the centers of the papers are about 17" apart. A more advanced drill uses sideways motion off the line of force before, during, and after the controlled fast pair.

With 8 + 1 capacity, you never overlook the possibility of getting to cover.

 

[AZG23]

As far as what you train...I often fall back to the story of the cop who double taps, reloads, doubletaps and reloads..doubletaps and reloads

the same LEO died in a shootout WITH 3 MAGS WITH 13 ROUNDS IN EACH LAYING NEXT TO HIM and an empty gun. He was so used to doing a double tap and reloading a new mag. That it got him killed...shoot em to the ground.

 

[Jim_Linch]

Here is a concept that is hard to grasp for many people...

"There is no difference in performance of 9mm, .357, .45, 10mm or any other major handgun caliber... They all are under powered!"

Handgun calibers should all be shot the same way, till they drop. That means hi-caps, 7 rnds of .45 from the coveted 1911, 5rnds of 38 special from the snubbie, etc.

The only time I see a change is when you go from 5.56 to .308 etc. where i personally switch from doubles to singles, but that's just me and because doubles are pretty slow on a .308

Point is... there is no magic bullet.

More is better! More capacity first, then more bigger hole second. If you can carry concealed a hi-cap .45 then go for it. But I would rather give up caliber size and have twice the shots in a 9mm than .45 any day.

A miss is just as effective with a 9mm as a .45 and YOU WILL MISS if you are shooting real moving targets and that's just one on one.

Suppression fire is not something the defensive shooting community likes to talk about because it is offensive by nature, but when you are out numbered and running for cover, it's not such a bad idea. To sustain it, hi-caps are worth their weight in gold.

What I just said will either fall on deaf ears or I will be preaching to the choir, as it's a position that only comes from practice and going past the square range and Guns & Ammo crowd for the most part.

Rare is the guy who looks hard at the issue and puts aside his desire to have a nice 1911 or what ever the gunrags are toting as the current shizzle.

 

[Bud White]

I dont pratice double taps i jsut shoot till i run dry No tac relaods nothign Fancy just shoot the 8+1 and reoad would matter 45 or Hi cap 9mm

 

[Tangle]

Here is a concept that is hard to grasp for many people...

"There is no difference in performance of 9mm, .357, .45, 10mm or any other major handgun caliber... They all are under powered!"

Handgun calibers should all be shot the same way, till they drop. That means hi-caps, 7 rnds of .45 from the coveted 1911, 5rnds of 38 special from the snubbie, etc.

The only time I see a change is when you go from 5.56 to .308 etc. where i personally switch from doubles to singles, but that's just me and because doubles are pretty slow on a .308

Point is... there is no magic bullet.

More is better! More capacity first, then more bigger hole second. If you can carry concealed a hi-cap .45 then go for it. But I would rather give up caliber size and have twice the shots in a 9mm than .45 any day.

A miss is just as effective with a 9mm as a .45 and YOU WILL MISS if you are shooting real moving targets and that's just one on one.

Suppression fire is not something the defensive shooting community likes to talk about because it is offensive by nature, but when you are out numbered and running for cover, it's not such a bad idea. To sustain it, hi-caps are worth their weight in gold.

What I just said will either fall on deaf ears or I will be preaching to the choir, as it's a position that only comes from practice and going past the square range and Guns & Ammo crowd for the most part.

Rare is the guy who looks hard at the issue and puts aside his desire to have a nice 1911 or what ever the gunrags are toting as the current shizzle.

+1
Some prominent trainers are now emphasizing shoot the threat to the ground quickly because as long as he's "up" he's probably shooting back at you. That's why they promote the two COMs followed by a head shot. The longer you and the BG shoot, the more likely someone is going to get shot.

 

[Miggy]

+1 (or is it +2?)

You use the amount of rounds that the taking BG down requires depending on the situation itself. There are no magic bullets and no magic number of bullets. Is the BG coming at you, whacked out of his head on drugs, with a kitchen knife? Maybe a Deliberate Pair to the COM will not stop him and ditto for Mozambique or Failure Drill (hitting a head of a fast moving BG is a risky gamble at best) so you want to go for a pelvic shot. Is the BG holding someone you love hostage and hiding behing him/her? If you can make the shot to his eye socket, probably you will need only one bullet. If not, your best bet is not shooting at all. Maybe the BG is already on top of you and you have Shoot from Retention and it might take 4 to 6 rounds to stop him. Maybe the BG is hidding behind some cover taking potshots at you and the only visible thing is his leg; then you go for the leg till you hit it hoping to get him to fall and offer more of his body. IMHO there are not set rules as number of shots and placement but one: Enough bullets well placed in his body to make sure he stops attacking.

When we set ourselves to practice one "system" we also set ourselves for deadly failure. Like I said above, hitting a head of a moving BG is a risky gamble at best. If you only practice shooting Mozambique or Failure Drill, that is what you will do in real life. But what if you are attacked and place two perfect shots on the BG's COM but miss the head and, ooops, you don't see the BG fall like he is supposed to do because he is wearing kevlar? You go, "WTF?!?", hesitate and give the BG a chance to kill you deader than hell. In the North Hollywood Shootout, the second BG was taken out not because LAPD placed well aimed shots to a compliant BG in his COM or head, they shot the crap out of his feet and legs because that was the only target available and the BG finally surrendered.

Here you have some examples of targets we have used at our local IDPA matches. For those who do not know, the black areas represent hard cover and any shot there is considered a miss. You can duplicate those or create your own and shoot them with different combinations of shots and, for added training, shoot them in different positios: On one knee, two knees, laying on your stomach or on your back, strong hand only, weak hand only, drawing from concealment, retrieving the gun from a box or a drawer, on the move, deliberate pairs, fast pairs, failure drills, bill drills, etc. The posibilities are endless and so are the situations you may face. Training for as many as you can is a must.

 

[Jim_Linch]

Miggy,
Would you believe I have never seen an IDPA/IPSC target with interspersed hard cover like the bottom 3 you have there. The crew is gonna hate me next time I get to setup a stage. muhahaahahaha!

 

[Miggy]

And they are based on real objects like street barricades and window bars.
At our club we have two level of Course Designers: Normal Designers and Truly Evil Designers. Nobody remains in the first category for long. There is one gentleman that I like to say he would use an elephant and a double decker bus in a CoF if he could get them in the range without enraging the caretakers.

 

[ExSoldier]

First of all anything worth shooting once is worth shooting TWICE. But you've got to proceed in a tactical fashion so that means when facing multiple opponents, you have to put a round into each threat before going back to clean up and finish up. Think of it like: Everybody gets FIRSTS before anybody gets SECONDS!

Second the term "Double Tap" is something of a Hollywood creation. There is a correct term but broken down into two components. A fast pair of shots using one sight picture is known as a Hammer while a pair of individually sighted shots is a Controlled Pair.

OTOH there is the venerable term created by the shooting community but originating from those heady days of the Rhodesian mercenary (remember how the magazine Soldier of Fortune got started?) referring to a technique called the MOZAMBIQUE which is two shots to the chest and one to the head. The domestic term for this comes from the police and is called a Failure to Stop drill or scenario.

Anything worth shooting once with any caliber is worth shooting twice with all calibers. I can't overstate this fact.

 

[ExSoldier]

And they are based on real objects like street barricades and window bars.
At our club we have two level of Course Designers: Normal Designers and Truly Evil Designers. Nobody remains in the first category for long. There is one gentleman that I like to say he would use an elephant and a double decker bus in a CoF if he could get them in the range without enraging the caretakers.

That would be FRANK? Or Roger?

 

[ExSoldier]

POST # 1000 for ExSoldier762!! Do I get a prize?

I dont pratice double taps i jsut shoot till i run dry No tac relaods nothign Fancy just shoot the 8+1 and reoad would matter 45 or Hi cap 9mm

A lot of folks agree with you. But what happens if the BG's buddies all show up and wish to discuss the situation with you....?

Man I thought it would take me longer to hit post # 1000 since I only joined in DEC of 2004. Love this place.

 

[P95Carry]

Regardless of my cal I would be most unlikely to envisage a one shot only.... unless that is, #1 connected well enough to make the perp decide enough is enough and surrender - and that is in itself a whole separate subject as to how to go about it.

I think it has to be (ideally) a paced delivery of shots of whatever number, as against a panic spray - all the while hoping to monitor the effects sufficient to know when the threat has been fully negated. Two or three may suffice - OTOH - may have to empty the mag.

With multiple assailants then I'll go with Ex -

Everybody gets FIRSTS before anybody gets SECONDS!

:wink:

Oh and as someone else mentioned - if at all possible - cover!

 

[Bud White]

A lot of folks agree with you. But what happens if the BG's buddies all show up and wish to discuss the situation with you....?

Man I thought it would take me longer to hit post # 1000 since I only joined in DEC of 2004. Love this place.

Reload and Discuss it with them too with 230 grain flying wasps if need be :biggrin:

Dont worry the next 1k will be faster yet

 

[KC135]

As far as what you train...I often fall back to the story of the cop who double taps, reloads, doubletaps and reloads..doubletaps and reloads

the same LEO died in a shootout WITH 3 MAGS WITH 13 ROUNDS IN EACH LAYING NEXT TO HIM and an empty gun. He was so used to doing a double tap and reloading a new mag. That it got him killed...shoot em to the ground.

Document please.

 

[KC135]

It is necessary to shoot until your opponent is no longer a threat.

If more than one, one each and PRN.

 

[AZG23]

Document please.

no document to support...as stated its is a story..true or not.

It is often stated that you will do what you have trained to do. Dont practice poor habits....this is my point. Poor training techniques can have a detrimental effect on your health.

 

[BlueLion]

I dont pratice double taps i jsut shoot till i run dry No tac relaods nothign Fancy just shoot the 8+1 and reoad would matter 45 or Hi cap 9mm

Amen brotha....simple: relax, squeeze, squeeze, and repeat if needed. Regardless of caliber...