Draw = commit?

6598 Views 93 Replies 53 Participants Last post by Blackeagle, Jun 23, 2007

P95Carry

Discussion Starter · Feb 23, 2006

No I don't think so. There are many I have heard say that if they have to draw it's because they will have to shoot - I guess leaving it to last moment or simply deciding that that is the stage where they ''get it on''. There will of course be scenarios where just this is necessary.

I can tho think of numerous situations where a draw (if, and I mean IF, really justifiable) might well be necessary ''in readiness'' - a situation where time is more generous and yet a perceived threat is still building, but we have no easy escape.

We know of many situations where no shot has to be fired - this might be simply the result of a ''reaching'' warning - enough to scare off a prospective but not very determined aggressor. Beyond that I think the drawn gun can also be a saviour of a situation, without a shot being fired - after which if sensible we'd call in the whole drama in detail - lest we get seen and then deemed the BG or simply booked for brandishing.

I'd qualify this all with my usual ''disclaimer - ''circumstances will as ever - alter events'' :wink:

Just seeing now what folks think on this matter.

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firefighter4884

· #2 · Feb 23, 2006

Chris,

I'm with you on this one.

For instance, if something goes boom in the middle of the night, and I have to investigate (if I'm at home with mom and dad and brother), I'm going to investigate, because I'm the only one equipped to do it. I'm probably (almost definately) leaving my room with my pistol in my hand, although I'm not planning on shooting the walls / floor as I leave the room.

As far as a situation where I'm cornered and out of site, yeah, I can see the need to draw a CCW without the instantaneous need to fire a shot.

--Jim

blacksan

· #3 · Feb 23, 2006

The appropriate level of force is that which stops the threat of serious bodily injury or death. If the aggressor ceases his or her actions after the draw but before using deadly force then have accomplished your task. In a court of law, being able to clearly articulate your actions and having those actions deemed reasonable for that particular situation will win your case in most jurisdictions. Having said that you must realize that a charge does not automatically equal conviction.

Several years ago in my area, multiple intoxicated males accosted a young father after work during his walk home. The primary aggressor made the overt threat of serious physical violence that made the victim feel as if he was in eminent danger. The victim drew his legally concealed weapon and fired a single shot mortally wounding the primary aggressor.

The victim was able to articulate his situation in such a thorough manor that the local Commonwealths Attorney (prosecutor in VA) did not even seek charges and rapidly closed the case. The burden will be on you (armed citizen) and that is why you must thoroughly study and understand your states law concerning deadly force.

The perception of overly aggressive shooter would also be diminished greatly by rendering aid in whatever form available to the BG in a post-shooting scenario. The next step is to call the attorney you have on retainer before making statements. The next move after that is trying to continue with your life after experiencing something that will change you in ways you most likely never imagined.

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Jeffg330

· #4 · Feb 23, 2006

I too have heard people pontificate that you draw only to fire. That kind of nonsence is the kind of thing that leads the less informed to think of us as "gun nuts" Perhaps it's better to say you only draw if your prepared to fire.

John 242

· #5 · Feb 23, 2006

blacksan said:
The perception of overly aggressive shooter would also be diminished greatly by rendering aid in whatever form available to the BG in a post-shooting scenario.

I am not so sure that rendering aid is such a good idea. Closing with someone who just seconds before was a lethal threat, without training to do so, and without back up seems unwise IMO.
If the guy was a threat before you shot him, then it is very possible that he still poses a threat after you have shot him. Aside from being killed, there is also the issue of catching a disease from the bodily fluids.

I understand the point being made, that rendering aid would look good in court. My point is that rendering aid may also create a dangerous situation for the 'shooter'.

With training, proper protective equipment (PPE), and with someone serving as back up.... different story.

Just my 2 cents.
Take care,
John

Team American

· #6 · Feb 23, 2006

I'm not going to shoot someone in the back as he's running away...if drawing my pistol and coming to "ready" causes him to choose that way out, I'll be a happy-camper.
Again, as you say Chris, events will determine the course of action.

mchasal

· #7 · Feb 23, 2006

I think the thing behind this is that most state laws have a brandishing clause. That is, you are not permitted to draw until you have justification to fire. If you draw when your life has not been threatened you could be considered the one the escalated the situation to deadly force.
Of course a lot can happen between the time you draw and you put your sights on target, so as Team American says, you need to evaluate the threat constantly so you don't shoot someone in the back.
I think the situation is slightly different for the "bump in the night" situation in your home as Jim describes. Hearing someone in your home itself is probably enough to put you in "fear for your life", and I would feel justified investigating things while armed.
I also agree about rendering aid, you don't know if the BG has a knife or other weapon and is just trying to gain an advantage. At worst you end up dead, at best you give him a hostage.

Mike

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RSSZ

· #8 · Feb 23, 2006

I can think of allot reasons to draw and not fire(immediately at least). We all just need to remember that if the situation is dire,yeah,go ahead and draw,but you could be setting yourself up to go to jail. The BG's lawyer (and prosecuter)will be ready to slap you with all kinds of crimes. To save your life......DRAW.....BUT.....to keep you and your family from financial ruin,make absolutely that it is necessary. Part of our training here is,draw,no draw drills. The critique's can get pretty wild,but I feel that is necessary. When to draw/when to fire, is a very personel thing. ---------

Miggy

· #9 · Feb 23, 2006

Let me see if I can make myself understood which is not always easy. Chris gives the equation Draw = Commit and I think we are adding one more factor to it (Draw = Commit = Shoot) that does not necessarily means the same in my opinion. Maybe we have the equation wrong and should be Commit = Draw meaning that we have assesed the situation, we feel that there is a reasonable chance of death or grave bodily harm and we now must commit to avoid that from happening. The next step is to draw the firearm with the firm conviction of using it and not just dispalying it in the hope the BG goes away scared and then we pull the trigger if the actions of the BG so require it.
I hope you guys get what I am trying to say. The coffeee hasn't kicked in yet.:embarassed:

rocky

· #10 · Feb 23, 2006

Have to agree. Just because you need to draw, it does not = need to fire. Lots of times the drawing of a firearm will deter a attacker. Not always though, and we need to be mentally prepared to follow thru with our actions to win defend ourselves.

dimmak

· #11 · Feb 23, 2006

My father is a LE and has advised my wife and myself that a brandishing charge in TN is only applied if the weapon is pointed towards the "victim" of the brandishing...
This is to protect someone from being charged for holstering / unholstering in an area that is conspicuous to the public (entering / exiting vehicle, i.e.) and is an area deemed legal to carry (not inside a bar, etc....)
He also advised that as far as pointing the weapon at a human is justifiable under the law insomuch as to defend one from the threat of death or serious bodily harm or to defend another person(s) from the threat of death or serious bodily harm. In layman's terms: unholster only if it is justifiable to use the weapon, but just because the weapon is out of it's holster does not mean it has to be used....
I'm as clear as mud this morning, huh?

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rstickle

· #12 · Feb 23, 2006

I always figured (using todays popular color coding) that the draw is like going from yellow to orange...... You don't have to go to red next, you have the option of returning to yellow as the situation plays out.

QKShooter

· #13 · Feb 23, 2006

We are not machines

I have also heard numerous Bull$hitty times that "if I draw my firearm then....blah blah" & "When I draw my firearm...blah blah"

Sorry but, drawing your firearm is not synonymous with "auto~shoot" ~~ even if in a "lightning fast situation"
If the action of drawing a firearm or the mere sight of a firearm is enough to instantly halt a given situation then...so be it. The firearm has still done its job of ending the immediate deadly threat to self without having the trigger pulled.

I believe that if there is a real enough perceived threat that causes the Good Guy to honestly feel it's necessary to have a defensive firearm "in hand"...for possible immediate defense of "Self" & the Good Guy has no Rap Sheet or Criminal History then no "Brandishing" charge will ultimately stick.

Pulling the trigger should always be another decision that is made following the decision to clear the leather.

It will usually be (out of absolute necessity) a split second decision but, a conscious decision should still be made before the boom.

You only need to look back as far as V.P. Chaney & his "Hunting Accident" to see the possible ramifications of full auto~pilot trigger pulling.

The human mind is capable of making extremely fast instantly rational decisions especially when a seasoned shooter is already in a 'ready to fire" position.

Me personally....I'll take a good "crack-shot" lawyer and a possible misdemeanor brandishing charge over possible unjustified deadly shooting allegations any day of the week & twice on Sunday.

Just my own opinion on that.

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Gelicious

· #14 · Feb 23, 2006

I will use every method I know to insure that I dont have to shoot somone. If that means being a bigger man and walking away from a threat (with my eyes on the attacker) then so be it. But if needed I will reach for it and make sure my hand is ready to draw it if needed. If that doesnt stop the attackers progression then I will draw, especially if I have my family with me. I will draw and in a demanding voice tell the BG to Keep his hands where I can see them and leave the area. If he reaches at that point ......well ill have a decision to make then wont I?

blacksan

· #15 · Feb 23, 2006

John 242 said:
I am not so sure that rendering aid is such a good idea. Closing with someone who just seconds before was a lethal threat, without training to do so, and without back up seems unwise IMO.
If the guy was a threat before you shot him, then it is very possible that he still poses a threat after you have shot him. Aside from being killed, there is also the issue of catching a disease from the bodily fluids.

I understand the point being made, that rendering aid would look good in court. My point is that rendering aid may also create a dangerous situation for the 'shooter'.

With training, proper protective equipment (PPE), and with someone serving as back up.... different story.

Just my 2 cents.
Take care,
John

I understand your thoughts and did want to imply victims should place themselves in harms way. Simply punching 911 on your cell and requesting the rescue squad for the BG as you take cover is in itself rendering assistance. That being the case if you are charged criminally, or sued civilly over the incident those rescored tapes would be a very helpful tool.

Miggy

· #16 · Feb 23, 2006

rocky said:
Have to agree. Just because you need to draw, it does not = need to fire. Lots of times the drawing of a firearm will deter a attacker. Not always though, and we need to be mentally prepared to follow thru with our actions to win defend ourselves.

That is what I was trying to say and failed miserably. Thanks rocky!

Tangle

· #17 · Feb 23, 2006

I had to draw once, it was against a huge, charging dog that broke open a door at a house that Tangle and I were walking past. I was honestly frightened.

I find from this experience, what QK said to be true, "The human mind is capable of making extremely fast instantly rational decisions especially when a seasoned shooter is already in a 'ready to fire" position."

I knew to move away from the dog's property without running. I established a "mental trigger" that if the dog charged into the road, I would draw and assess. He did and I did, draw my gun that is, and continually assessed the situation. While I wasn't being shot at or threatened by a knife, in my mind, I was truly under a potentioally dangerous attack by a formidiable enemy - everything was pumping.

Still I realized the owner had run out behind the dog and was yelling that the dog wouldn't bite. It ended when the dog suddenly stopped one foot from Tangle. They sniffed noses and about that time the owner gained control of her monster dog.

I was committed to shoot, but only if the situation continued to materialize to a point that I believed that was the only solution left and I gotta say that was really, really close.

It took me about 7 minutes to get back home and I was shaking and hyper. Probably from fear, but I'd rather think, "It was just adrenaline".

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artz

· #18 · Feb 23, 2006

I never felt good about the old "if you pull that gun you better use it" routine. It all is gonna depend on the situation...

John 242

· #19 · Feb 23, 2006

blacksan said:
I understand your thoughts and did want to imply victims should place themselves in harms way. Simply punching 911 on your cell and requesting the rescue squad for the BG as you take cover is in itself rendering assistance. That being the case if you are charged criminally, or sued civilly over the incident those rescored tapes would be a very helpful tool.

Agreed.
Thank you and take care,
John

Tangle

· #20 · Feb 23, 2006

artz said:
I never felt good about the old "if you pull that gun you better use it" routine. It all is gonna depend on the situation...

Kinda falls into the same catagory as "If you shoot'em outside your house, you better drag them inside."

Neither is good advice.

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