[P95Carry]

I am wondering if we can increase our collective knowledge perhaps - as to what bad guy's behaviors might be under some influences.

What have we potentially got to consider? Alcohol, Meth, Smack, Crack, Pure Cocaine maybe, PCP, morphine derivatives, oxycontin, Xanax and Prozac, high dose benzodiazepines, ''Ecstacy" - what have I left out? Oh maybe inhalents I guess possible too.

I may have included some overlap but - can we quantify these individually, to paint a presentation picture? I can imagine some but maybe not all. Perhaps members in LE, and also those in medical fields can add some useful info.

Main thing I tend to think of, is the mention we hear a lot about increased pain thresholds and so a greater problem in dealing with a threat. Just how ''indestructible'' (barring CNS shutdown) can a BG get?

 

[rocky]

As well as increased or no pain threshhold, some drugs can cause users to see a altered reality. they may see people or objects as monsters coming to get them, cause em to act strange. Some drugs slow reaction time, loosen muscles. Lots of diffrent effects depending on the drug and dosage. Increased strength may occur as well. The same response to drug users should be considered for the mentallly unstable.
Irrational responses may call for a higher threat level action on your part sooner.

 

[Euclidean]

I think the worst part is that it seems people high on these drugs sometimes don't realize they've been shot.

A big part of "stopping power" is your aggressor realizing they've been shot and stopping the aggression.

 

[Tubby45]

I recall a case from cop school where a drug user (don't know what kind) was shot 33 times with a 9mm and 2 times with a 12ga slug. The one that finally dropped him was a CNS hit from the slug. Quite impressive show of the capacity for the will to survive if you as me.

Alcohol, PCP, cocaine, morphine and other opium derivitives, meth are usually the ones that dull pain receptors. Morphine mimicks the pain killer chemicals released by the human body in the adrenaline concoction. Yes, the body does produce a morphine like substance.

Narcotics (opium, morphine, herion), stimulants (cocaine amphetamines) and to some extent, hallucinogens (LSD, peyote) have effects of reducing pain sensory functions. Depressants aren't usually violent enducing substances, save for alcohol, which usually takes on the form of the mood the individual is in at the time of administration.

If you are in a good mood and get drunk, you will probably be a "happy drunk". If you are trying to drink off a lost loved one, you will become more depressed, and if you are angry you will become violent. Your mileage may vary.

Basically the real worrysome substances are narcotics, stimulants, alcohol, and hallucinogens. Euphoric behaviors are usually associated with marijuana, hashish, ecstacy, hallucinogens, inhalants, stimulants to some degree. These are usually called the happy drugs, because of their calming "I just want to chill" effect. Pot is probably the least violent inducing drug in the world. I have never been an angel all my life, and I have never known someone that has commited violence while high on marijuana, and I have known a lot of potheads in my days.

On any drug, expect erratic, incoherent, unpredictability. Not everyone reacts the same to these drugs, so the above is just a general effect of what they do to the average user. Expect more than one shot for stoppage of any threat regardless of the degree of soberness or influence.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[P95Carry]

Knew I'd forget some - indeed the hallucinogens - another problem area if a BG's perceptions are all distorted. Thx for the input.

I could but hope one thing - but not take it as read of course - that many ''substances'' can and do decrease control, reaction time etc - and so leaving aside pain aspects, just perhaps sometimes a BG might be at least less skilled!

 

[NaturalSelection]

the moros tribesmen of the early 1900s is the most documented example i can think of. they were religious fanatics that would jack themselves up on (some variant of) opium before going into battle. the US army adopted the .45 acp specifically for this reason. the .38 colt of the era wouldnt stop them from advancing. there were countless reports of the .38 colt failing to stop the moros tribesmen even after being hit center of mass with all 6 bullets. the .45acp proved effective against them.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/art/P-P/USAIA/Moros.htm reads:

"The U.S. Army .45-caliber pistol was developed to meet the need for a weapon with enough striking power to stop fanatical charges of lawless Moro tribesmen in hand-to-hand fighting."

all the information anyone could care to read on the moros tribesmen is available with a simple internet search engine. it makes for very interesting reading. my grandfather told me many stories about the moros when i was 5 or 6, and ive been a 1911 enthusiast ever since.

 

[HotGuns]

The most violent offender I've have seen thus far didnt even involve drugs...it involved sniffing paint.

The city PD got a call about a man in a trailer park acting in a "suspicous manner". After a few minutes an officer arrived and called for backup. One officer was apparently on the way and got there within seconds.Shorty thereafter another arrived. He also called for additional help. Unfortunatley for them, the other units werer tied up on traffic control on a accident with injury so the Sherrif Dept. was called.

All we knew was that 3 officers from the PD needed assistance right now, and dispatch hadnt been able to raise any of them on the radio. About then dispatch got another call saying that 3 officers were getting thrashed and two folks that had lived there had jumped into the fracas. At that time we didnt know what the heck was going on but every unit within 20 miles made a mad dash to the place.

When I got there, I couldnt beleive what I saw. A man that was about 6"5" and a good solid 250 was wearing a pink TUTU,pink leotards and his face was silver from spraying the paint in a paper sack and sniffing it.

Rocky mentions altered reality...this guy had it...:blink:

Anyhow...this wierdo had cut one fo the officers with a large bowie knife and the other two cops and residents were all tied up in a ball wrestling him and trying not to get cut. The other cop had a nasty gash in his arm and he just sprayed the into the middle of the cluster with pepper spray. :gah: All it did was enrage this guy even further.:aargh4: He got loose and grabbed the cop that sprayed him and got him in a choke hold. Luckily somewhere in the process one of the other cops knocked the knife away. BY this time. there were a total of 7 officers on the scene, all with guns drawn on the perp but no one would shoot for fear of hitting everyone around...it definatley wasnt safe. Two officers holstered their weapons and began whooping up on this dude with ASP's, beating him about the head and shoulders trying to get him to release the cop, who was getting awful feeble by now.:twak: I told my shift supervisor that I was going to choke him down and he told me that it had better be quick because he was fixing to shoot him.

Using my ASP, I placed it under his chin and with both arms used it to press against his windpipe. The ride was on....and about the only way that I can describe it is like trying to ride an unbroken horse...except this one was trying to peel me off on a police car, the ground, the edge of a trailerhouse while grabbing the ASP and trying to get it off his throat.Im no small guy at 270 and 6"2" myself and he was tossing me around like a rag doll, in fact,I'm not sure that my feet were ever on the ground after I started choking him. Finally, he dropped to his knees and was pigpiled by everyone there. We ended up using two sets of handcuffs and one set of shackles to get him in the car. This dude made it to the back of the car without ever hitting the ground...and we had to talke him the the E.R. in the hospital. Thinking that we would have another fight on our hands when we got there, several officers met us there just in case.

Luckily, the guy just passed out on the way and was no problem other than the fact that it was quite a chore to remove his slumping hulk forn the car into the E.R. He spent the night in the hospital for observation and was released to the Sherrif Dept where he was thrown in the county jail. He had NO recollection of the events when it came to trial and was found guilty of attempted murder, assault,property damage,using a susbstance in an illegal manner.He got 12 years in jail where he is still living complements of the tax payers.

When I think of the small caliber guns that many people feel safe with, I am often reminded of this incident that happened a few years ago. Too be honest, I felt undergunned with my Sig .45 and am quite sure that I would have dumped the whole mag on him if he came after me with that 12" Bowie knife.

Many people feel safe and somewhat prepared carry the ittiy bitty calibers but I go on the theory that if you meet up with a big 6"5" dude in great condition that is wearing a pink TUTU, sporting a large Bowie knife, feeling no pain and he decides that you are cute and wants to dance with you,you'd better carry the biggest handgun that you can, cause its very possible that even it may not be enough...:blink:

 

[P95Carry]

HG - that is a VERY salutary incident. :yikes:

 

[blacksan]

Several years ago, I attempted to make an arrest on what I perceived to be a mere DUI that turned very bad! To make a real long story short in my feeble attempt to cuff this wildcat he and I fought for an eternity (at least it seemed that way) until the cavalry arrived. In the process, I broke his thumb (unintentionally) in a handhold bending it back until it lay perpendicular with his wrist and he just looked at me and smiled. When the second officer finally arrived, the bad guy commenced to kick both of us around like a soccer ball until he decided to try and disarm my partner by yanking on his Smith so dam hard the holster was almost torn from the duty belt. My trusty old 6-cell flash light went in to action, I whacked him in the thigh several times causing a fracture, and he did not even know I was there. What brought all this to a stop, the additional sirens wailing in the distance made him freeze like a dear in the headlights and he just gave up. The blood draw results uncovered PCP along with a generous amount of alcohol. When he finally came down he could not move but in his Superman stage, he was unstoppable. Oh, I forgot to mention that he was about 150 and stood a towering 5' 6".

 

[P95Carry]

Wow Adrian - just the sort on input I wanted, thank you. I have heard of these things but 1st hand accounts are better.

he was about 150 and stood a towering 5' 6".

Hell - that sure puts it into perspective! It seems the PCP/alcohol mix is maybe one of the very worst!

Stay safe!!

 

[NaturalSelection]

in my feeble attempt to cuff this wildcat he and I fought for an eternity (at least it seemed that way) until the cavalry arrived. In the process, I broke his thumb (unintentionally) in a handhold bending it back until it lay perpendicular with his wrist and he just looked at me and smiled. When the second officer finally arrived, the bad guy commenced to kick both of us around like a soccer ball.

why would you subject yourself to getting kicked around like a soccer ball instead of planting one center mass? i realize as an officer you come under a lot of scrutiny, but it seems to me that its better to subject yourself to scrutiny than to being shot by your own weapon. i wasnt there and im not criticizing you for the decisions you made, im just speaking from what seems to me to be a better solution. im what most would consider "healthy", but im not going to wrestle (subjecting myself to the aids laden needles in their pocket) with anybody physically. i will leave the scene if i can, or defend myself with my weapon if im forced to......but one way or another nobody is going to get their hands on me. i know there are certain criteria that must be met before a shooting is justified, i just dont understand reluctance to use the tools you have onces these criteria are clearly met.

 

[blacksan]

why would you subject yourself to getting kicked around like a soccer ball instead of planting one center mass? i realize as an officer you come under a lot of scrutiny, but it seems to me that its better to subject yourself to scrutiny than to being shot by your own weapon. i wasnt there and im not criticizing you for the decisions you made, im just speaking from what seems to me to be a better solution. im what most would consider "healthy", but im not going to wrestle (subjecting myself to the aids laden needles in their pocket) with anybody physically. i will leave the scene if i can, or defend myself with my weapon if im forced to......but one way or another nobody is going to get their hands on me. i know there are certain criteria that must be met before a shooting is justified, i just dont understand reluctance to use the tools you have onces these criteria are clearly met.

I fully understand why you would ask that queation. We where in a dirveway adjacent to, and level with several homes jamed full with mom's, dad's and kids watching the show. If I would have let one loss, and missed I could have pluged a good citizen instead of the bad guy. Having said that if we where out in the boonies I would not have hesitated. Urban defense can be a real bitch at times!!!!

 

[ArmyCop]

One of my fellow auxiliary officers had an uncle crazed up on drugs & who knows whatever else break in his house through the front door. After several warnings the aux fired one, two, three - FIVE 9mm hollowpoints into the uncle's torso before he finally turned around and stumbled down outside.
Since then the aux has switched to the .40 caliber. Uncle died (sorta) then brought back by emergency medical guys.

 

[gddyup]

One of my fellow auxiliary officers had an uncle crazed up on drugs & who knows whatever else break in his house through the front door. After several warnings the aux fired one, two, three - FIVE 9mm hollowpoints into the uncle's torso before he finally turned around and stumbled down outside.
Since then the aux has switched to the .40 caliber. Uncle died (sorta) then brought back by emergency medical guys.

When the BG has gone so far into OD territory and the pain threshold is next to zero, the size of the holes you start putting into them really makes no difference. Unless you're hitting main nerve centers or a CNS hit with a smaller caliber or punching limbs off with something in the .50X caliber, they'll keepa right on comin until THEY decide they don't want to anymore. 9mm, .40, .45, they're all the same to someone flippin out.

I've seen a guy get pushed into the street by his girlfriend, get hit by a car going roughly 40 MPH, pick himself up off the street after going over the top of the car, run over to the sidewalk and punch his girlfriend in the face! Was he hopped up out of his mind? Hell yeah he was! The really interesting thing about it was the fact that this guy was running on a tib/fib break in the right leg, 5 broken ribs, a shattered eye socket, 4 broken fingers on the left hand, a compound fracture of the right radius, and a bunch of busted teeth! After he punched his girlfriend in the face, they both saw the PD coming from about a 1/2 mile away (decently long stretch of road), she got in the passenger side, he into the driver's side, and DROVE OFF IN HIS TRUCK!!!!!! From the time of the event till the time he registered into the ER was about 45-60 minutes later. How he survived the first 5 minutes, never mind the amount of time as it happened, is completely beyond me. :blink:

 

[srfl]

I recall a case from cop school where a drug user (don't know what kind) was shot 33 times with a 9mm and 2 times with a 12ga slug. The one that finally dropped him was a CNS hit from the slug. Quite impressive show of the capacity for the will to survive if you as me.
(SNIP)

I recall Mas Ayoob discussing this a number of times at LFI when I went in 1996, on American Handgunner and other gun magazines; BG was on PCP and engaged by the Illinois State Police then armed with S&W Model 39's. The 9mm load used was a 100 grain soft point.

 

[NaturalSelection]

9mm, .40, .45, they're all the same to someone flippin out.

i would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. as my earlier heavily documented example of the moros tribesmen shows, caliber can and does make a difference. yes youll find all types of examples where someone took a 12ga. slug to the head, etc. but these instances are the exception and not the rule. carrying a big-bore is not a gaurantee that even a solid hit will stop your aggressor, but it definately improves your odds.

 

[Kel-Tec2006]

The violence often associated with PCP use is likely to be due to a combination of its multiple effects including its ability to block pain and its stimulant and psychedelic actions.

Took that from a site on PCP effects. Don't know much about this stuff myself-never even took a puff of weed. My parents put the fear of God into me about that stuff and thankfully it kept me away from it.

That being said, I remember reading something about a college student hopped up on it attacking the guard station. From what I remember, he smashed out their windows with his hands and beat a number of them severly before he could be restrained. I also know the sport I had the unfortunate experience of being involved in (powerlifting) has its share of PCP users pre lift. I guess it is easier to squat 1000 when you can't feel anything.

My advice-aim for the chest or head. I dont care what you are on, 230 grain hydra shoks from my .45 to the skull are going to stop you in your tracks, and leave one hell of a mess.

 

[Tubby45]

I recall Mas Ayoob discussing this a number of times at LFI when I went in 1996, on American Handgunner and other gun magazines; BG was on PCP and engaged by the Illinois State Police then armed with S&W Model 39's. The 9mm load used was a 100 grain soft point.

Ahhhh, yes. That is where it was from: IL. Didn't get too specific about details at school. They like to use "the was a case where..." and not tell where or who.

PCP is some nasty stuff. So is crystal meth.

 

[madmike]

Whatever their drug of choice, none will add to their IQ's or critical decision-making skills.

The lack of caring anything about "what" they have to do to "whoever" to get the money to pay for their libations doesn't improve their standing on the evolutionary scale, either. :ticking:

Guess you can deduce where I stand on the issue of drug use, "recreational" or otherwise. . .

ZERO TOLLERANCE! :nono:

mm

 

[blacksan]

The whole caliber/hole issue goes out the window when someone does not give a dam about being shot. The perp stops when they bleed out in my experience. For everyone here that hunts you are well aware that animals can take tremendous amounts of damage at times and not go down for several minutes. The last whitetail I took received a very precise 30-caliber hole through the heart and still ran for about a 1/4 of a mile before just laying down and bleeding out. The real key is shot placement and not so much caliber. When I am asked about which gun/caliber to carry I always tell the person what ever combo you can handle and shot most efficiently. The second piece of advise I give is never ever assume the fight is over if the round, or rounds find there mark, that is just you opportunity to seek cover, or concealment while keeping an eye on the bad guy. The next step is to get help for the injured (yes even the bad guy) and while you wait for the police to arrive get in touch with your attorney. Last but not least you will most likely have your pistola taken by police and you will feel naked and vulnerable on your long ride home. My old department would give us another piece on the spot for physiological assurance and it was a good idea.