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Discussion Starter #1
I've read several of the threads on here and other forums about the danger of carrying SOB. Actually I saw the first warning over at gunzone.com. Dean Speirs wrote an article about it and listed his contact info. I sent him an email which is almost exactly what I'm writing below and he wanted $1250 to formulate a response. :aargh4:

I didn't know that the 3 minutes required to read my email and 'It'll be fine', 'Don't do it', 'I don't know' or 'Leave me alone, I'm busy' was so expensive. Apparently it actually requires "call it half-a-day" to read the email and respond...So, I'm back where I should have come in the first place.

Oh well, here is my question. Right now I carry a single, Dan Wesson full-size, stainless 1911 .45ACP in a Milt Sparks Versa-Max II IWB holster (grip forward cant) at the 3:30-4:00 position. Its an excellent holster, very comfortable and outstanding concealability.

I don't carry a backup gun yet, but plan to as soon as I can afford another one. I am of the philosophy that I only want to shoot, practice and train with one specific gun, so its always the same feel, recoil, weight, size, etc., plus uses the same magazines. So, with that said, I plan to purchase another identical 1911 for my backup gun.

Trying to conceal two full size 1911's takes some thought. I'm a pretty small guy, 5'6", 135 lbs. I have considered shoulder holsters, but due to my small frame size, the barrel of a 5" 1911 would poke out the back of my shirt I believe on a shoulder holster with a gun held horizontally. If they are held vertically, or angled, I think the grip of the gun would stick out the front, or at least be easy to see unless I was wearing something like a closed or nearly-closed coat or jacket. Basically, not an optimum solution for a small guy. I have been trying to come up with other solutions, including carrying one in a smartcarry holster covering my nether-regions, another probably non-optimum solution, but wouldn't print as bad. It may be what I have to do if my next suggestion is unacceptable.

I have been thinking of wearing two holsters like the one I have now, only the other one would be reversed for a left handed draw. This wouldn't have the same spine crushing drawbacks as a typical SOB holster would it? Since the guns aren't actually over the top of the spine, they are behind each hip with a gap where the spine is. It might actually offer some protection for the spine since you would have two guns helping to separate your body away from a flat surface during an impact. Does that make sense? So, if I carried this way, would I be in any more danger of a spinal injury than my current mode of carry, or would this method be OK? I could see at a worst case scenario, suffering injury to one or both kidneys from the gun grips, but they are soft tissue and a little more forgiving than metal on bone (spine), plus I would think that hips would offer some more protection and take the brunt of it. As it stands now, I and I'd say a large majority of those currently carrying handguns would be taking at least half of that risk to the kidney already as the 3:30-4:00 position is one of the most common locations. Only the grip of the gun sticks up high enough to affect the kidney and I would think that at worst you might suffer a bruise. If the injury is worse than that, you probably have other, worse injuries, to worry about from whatever caused the injury.

Anyway, I wanted to see what your thoughts are on this if you have the time, it would be greatly appreciated. I try to put a lot of thought into everything I do related to firearms. Training, mental prep, equipment selection, law, concealment, etc. I want to ensure I do the right things to give myself the best fighting chance while remaining as safe as possible in the process.
 

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My personal opinion on this type of worry over injury is that it is over thinking a pontental problem. While I don't deny that you can substain a injury of with this type carry, what are the odds? You could be hit from a falling brick also, but would you worry about it in your everyday life? You are much more likely to recieve a head injury while driving or being injured while taking a shower.

I think your idea of carry will work for you. A gun on each side. I remember seeing a rig for twin carry of SOB. The guns did not sit over the spine but on each side of it. That could be a option for you. I can't remember right now where I seen it, but I am sure one of the other members will know where it is.
 

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Two 1911's, do you live in a war zone? I mean it's your right and all but that's a LOT of weight and gear for someone your size (I'm just about the same size) and I can't imagine you being comfortable with all that for any length of time. Following principles of risk assessment, you must feel you're treading in dangerous territory! Just curious.

Gideon
 

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Trade_Sniper said:
Dean Speirs wrote an article about it and listed his contact info. I sent him an email which is almost exactly what I'm writing below and he wanted $1250 to formulate a response. :aargh4:
Well, ol' Dean-O has to keep The Gun Zone going somehow, doesn't he?:danceban:

Having cracked my tailbone, when I was a teenager, no, I wouldn't use MOB. SOB (over the flank), offers you more padding. If you are frontally assaulted, and taken down, odds are good you'll sustain a back injury- why go out of the way to potentially make it worse?

Bear in mind- dual carry means you have two weapons to retain. If I smack your head, and pull your jacket up from behind to bring your face towards my upcoming knee, what do I see? Lo and behold! Right there, a .45, perfectly in place for my right hand to draw, and put a couple into your back.:gah:

I'm not saying disarming anyone is necessarily easy, but I'm not in favor of carry I can't shield to some extent, while using the other hand to beat/shield/fall-break/shove, etc.. Not all p[roblems need to be terminally solved. Carrying something you can't be very sure of controlling means that you will be more likely to have to resort to deadly force.
 

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Rob72 said:
Well, ol' Dean-O has to keep The Gun Zone going somehow, doesn't he?:danceban:

Having cracked my tailbone, when I was a teenager, no, I wouldn't use MOB. SOB (over the flank), offers you more padding. If you are frontally assaulted, and taken down, odds are good you'll sustain a back injury- why go out of the way to potentially make it worse?

Bear in mind- dual carry means you have two weapons to retain. If I smack your head, and pull your jacket up from behind to bring your face towards my upcoming knee, what do I see? Lo and behold! Right there, a .45, perfectly in place for my right hand to draw, and put a couple into your back.:gah:

I'm not saying disarming anyone is necessarily easy, but I'm not in favor of carry I can't shield to some extent, while using the other hand to beat/shield/fall-break/shove, etc.. Not all p[roblems need to be terminally solved. Carrying something you can't be very sure of controlling means that you will be more likely to have to resort to deadly force.
Wow, great response. Food for thought!
 

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THe double rig shown in the other post is also made by CHarter Oak,, but I would think long and hard about dual 1911's.

If your job or "AO" require you or you just feel better doubling up, I would suggest, going with an Officer or Commander size as a back up.

Like you posted the easier way to carry is shoulder rig and belt,, I carried a Colt 357 6" in a shoulder rig and my S&W 27 3 1/2" on the hip for a few years,, at the end of the day you sure knew it..

Stay away from the spine carry, we are to moblie, in and out of cars,, standing setting ,, its just to much for the back,,

ANother way to carry is go for the strong side just above the hip, and then weak side cross draw,, or just up size the pants enough to admit into the waist a dual pair of IWB's holsters,, and don't forget the extra ammo.

And ,as has been pointed out, there is now the extra weapon involved, now you move to going to more secure holsters, no more speed rigs, you have to up the ante.

IF system is more important, then caliber, this is what I see are your options,,

Now if caliber is a little flexable,and the system isn't then look to finding one of the Colt pocket pitols in 380, go for pocket carry as BUG while the 1911 rides on the hip.

Now if system and caliber are a little flexable I would suggest a 1911 and a Pocket Khar{steel} in your choice of caliber, its close in feel to the 1911, but is DAO.

Can't think of any thing else,, when I was working in the LEO field I carry as soon as department reg's let me any where from 2 to 3 handguns,, last years it was the 229/40, P9, and the Pokemon {Khar Mk-40} on the vest as a last ditch, the 229 had 2 extra amg's the Khar-9 1, the vest gun none,,as you can see with ever thing else on the bat -belt weight becomes a factor
 

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Howdy!
I believe you are describing a mirrior image set up. I've got clients who do opt for this approach - wearing a matching right and left hand holster (both strong side) behind the respective hip bones.
This is a very viable solution. However, as was previously stated, you are presented with the problem of having to maintain control of two weapons if someone attempts to disarm you.
Also (particularily given your size) a pair of steel framed 5" 1911's is going to be a lot to carry. The same approach would be MUCH simpler if you were to choose a pair of alloy/Ti framed 3" or 3/12" guns instead.
FWIW, SOB is tremendously dangerous, and I STRONGLY advise against it - in any form whatsoever.
Please call me if I can be of further help (and you don't have to buy a holster to talk to me) Thanks!
 

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Just so you know, my response is FREE, no charge. I would have told Dean Speirs where he could shove his $1250 reply.

Anyway I cannot imagine carrying 2 1911's. One is almost too much for all day carry for me and I am bigger than you. You might try extra magazines for that heavy a gun instead. If not, go to a bug for backup. A little practice and you won't have a problem switching from one gun to another.

I carry a Kahr Arms P9 for may main carry gun. Sometimes a Springfield 1911 A1 but like I said it is a load to carry after awhile. I also carry a 2 shot 9MM Derringer if I feel the need for a back up. It's not meant to fight a battle with, just get me out of trouble. Unless you are in a war zone I don't see the necessity for two 1911's.
 

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I tried the SOB format once,

Keyword their is ONCE,

After riding into town in the car, and in and out a couple of times running errands, My back was killing me for a week and half. That was with one G21 full size. I can't imagine trying it with two guns.

Try this at home, take two guns, (unloaded of course) and just put them in place mexican style,(no holster) and sit in your car, and sit in a couple of chairs in the house, that will give you an idea of what you are looking at. A holster may make it not dig as bad, but just having that much of any material stuck back there is a real pain in the:aargh4:

FWIW
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Good info. Gun retention is something major to consider.

Shoulder holsters don't lend themselves to summer-time, high heat carry very well when you wear less clothing and the material itself tends to be lighter. At least thats what I would think, I've never worn one so I don't know for sure. I know I am always worried about my unbuttoned cover shirt blowing open while walking in the wind and showing my gun. In its current position IWB at 3:30-4:00, it is much harder to see it than I had thought, which is why I like that location.

I would have to try one of those holsters pictured to see how they draw compared to my current mode with the grip pointed inwards instead of outwards. This would mean reaching all of my hand/fingers between the grip and my back to draw instead of just my thumb. So I'm not sure if it would be easier/faster or harder. This is why I thought about getting another one just like I have but flipped because I know how to draw this one and its pretty fast. But until I try it, I have no way of knowing, the grip pointed out like the pic above may be faster/easier because you don't have to reach behind so far to grab it.

As far as weight, I think it would only be like adding 1/3 more than I have now, maybe a little more and I carry the current weight just fine. I carry every waking moment of the day/night which helps to condition me to the extra weight. I currently carry two extra mags full. I don't think any extra mags will be necessary if I add another gun that takes the same magazine. With two guns having 7+1, then two full magazines, that makes for 30 rounds, which for all intensive purposes should be enough. So the only thing added will be a gun and another holster or swapping current holster for a two-gun model (pictured above).

I won't budge on my gun choice (large 1911). I *might* consider a Commander size, but am not sure that it would make much of a difference in weight or concealability. I have small hands and this gun just FITS, like a glove. I shot many different kinds, styles and brands of guns before picking this one and when I put it in my hand and shot it, it was like an extension of myself. I think because of this, I shoot it very accurately (more than any of the other types I tried). It is a heavy gun, but part of that is why I like it, reduced recoil with a large calibur. I also like the single action. Its just the right gun for me.

So having said all of this, what are the options or recommendations pertaining to retention? Is there a better way to carry a BUG like this while keeping it reasonably secure?

Would two holsters like I have now, with one flipped offer more retention because of the direction/angle of the grips or is there no difference compared to the one pictured above?

In the colder months, I would consider carrying one in a shoulder holster, but still feel these would be easier to grab than one that is behind me. Normally you will face a threat (maybe at an angle), so a gun behind you seems like it would be more secure. I won't let a threat get close enough to me to 'smack me in the head'. Things would have already escalated to a much more dramatic level by then. Plus I still have the concern of printing with a shoulder holster, with either the grip or end of the barrel.

I suppose a SmartCarry is still an option, I am just not sure how comfortable such a large gun will be there, not to mention having to urinate. Its bad enough now with the existing weight pulling down on my pants, add to that the difficulty of getting the smartcarry out of the way, I might wet myself before I got everything situated. :rolleyes:

Can you urinate through just a zipper opening (top button and belt still fastened) with a large gun in a smartcarry?

I hate to ask such personal questions, but these are REAL issues and just a part of it all.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
4my son said:
I tried the SOB format once,

Keyword their is ONCE,

After riding into town in the car, and in and out a couple of times running errands, My back was killing me for a week and half. That was with one G21 full size. I can't imagine trying it with two guns.

Try this at home, take two guns, (unloaded of course) and just put them in place mexican style,(no holster) and sit in your car, and sit in a couple of chairs in the house, that will give you an idea of what you are looking at. A holster may make it not dig as bad, but just having that much of any material stuck back there is a real pain in the:aargh4:

FWIW
I have thought about this. As I said, it can't be a tremendous difference from what I have now. I already have one gun a 3:30-4:00 and a dual mag carrier with two full mags located in the same spot on the other hip, carried every waking hour, standing, sitting, driving. So I'm already used to sitting (and driving) on this gun and mag carrier. I would have to relocate my dual mag carrier to put another holster there, not sure where to. My current holster is plenty comfortable. Sure, its not like nothing is there, but its more than tolerable for the long hours I carry it. Total comfort was never expected. I started off 3-4 hours, then 5-6 hours, then 7-8 hours and built up to carrying it all the time, in home and out. I did it this way purposely to get my body conditioned to carrying the extra weight and bulk and to get me used to moving, sitting, etc. with it while at the same time not banging it against chairs, walls, people, etc. It takes some lifestyle/movement modification, but I've adapted pretty well. Even though I am small, I am muscular, so I carry my weight very well.

I know it will add more weight, but not dramatically more than I already carry.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Also, keep in mind, I'm not objecting or disagreeing with any of your posts, far from it, I appreciate the information greatly. Just trying to let you understand how much of this I have though about. All of the points mentioned by everyone are valid. I'm just trying to find the best compromise that works for me. Thats the one benefit I could see in the smartcarry is it would offset some weight to the front.
 

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Unless you REALLY think you need to carry 2 full size guns, why not look into a Colt Mustang or a 3" Defender ? To me, carrying 2 full size is a bit overkill. I feel carrying more spare magazines is a much better option.
2 full size guns are gonna weight ya down and be a real pain in the butt. Just my 2 cents, but try as suggested. carry 2 around the house or such.
 

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Trade_Sniper said:
I have thought about this. As I said, it can't be a tremendous difference from what I have now. I already have one gun a 3:30-4:00 and a dual mag carrier with two full mags located in the same spot on the other hip,

I didn't realize how much different it would actually be, for me anyway. When I started wearing around the house, it was SOB, right at 6:00 with a healthy cant toward my strong side for easier draw angle. When I started regular carry, I went to 3:30-4:00 IWB, right behind the hip bone to reduce the amount of width it added to me. This change was brought about swiftley after my afore mentined pains.

Everyone is different, and what works for some will not work for all.

Give it a try before you invest in a lot of money, When getting a holster to use, several out their are reversable, so if you decide to go with the 3:30-4:00 and 7:00-8:30 for a mirror setup you can try out the left hand carry for fit and function without having to buy a dedicated left hand holster.

FWIW,

Just some ideas.
 

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I like that Snakeyes type holster. I saw that in the movie and just about died. I think Triple K used to make one or El Paso or something. Some 2nd grade holster company.
 

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I love my 1911, and I love my ruger P-89, too. I like to keep the 45 as a back-up somewhere near me but the 9mm 14 shot mag. is my primary carry; and Barreta .380 (12 shot mag) for back-up.
 

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Odd youll be injured probley pretty small .. alsomt like the odd that durning a routine colonoscopy your bowels will be preferated ohh wait bad example there .. I wouldnt take the risk have i fell with and one a gun before yepper fell on my back yepper so for me its a no go i all ready have a bad back
 

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Trade Sniper, with your size frame, you could carry two 4" or Commander sized 1911s in a shoulder holster very easy. No more problem with a cover shirt than with a IWB carry. Just get it adjusted right where they are not flopping around. Tighten up the back so it pulls the holster into your side. Or carry IWB and single shoulder holster. Two 1911 in your pants is a load,on you and a belt. The differance of a double shoulder rig is the weight is balanced out. You can Carry single pistol and balance out the other side with ammo. :image035: Make sure the mags you carry fit both pistols if you carry single shoulder and single IWB.
 

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I'm just a hair under 6'1 and my bodyweight ranges season to season (sports related) from 150 to 170lbs. depending on which activity/sport I'm training for.
My waist stays the same size though which has always been waspy at a measured 29 and I wear a size 30 or 31 pant waist (whatever will clear my ass and comes in a matching inseam) most often walking around in jeans with chinos or suits on ocassion.
With that said at times I'll carry two 1911s or just want the option to carry a single 1911 in more than one position such as when driving for long distances.

My primary holster system is sourced from a company called Bandera Gun Leather with their 'Beltster' product; http://www.banderagunleather.com

The following are pics and descriptions from a review I wrote about this product several months back at another site.
Bottom line I give it two very high thumbs up and in either position I can carry CCW with nothign more than a t-shirt as cover and no one knows I have one never mind two 1911s on my person.
Do note the wepaons displayed in the pics below are a SA Lightweight Compact (kidney position), a Colt Defender (weak side appendix), and for demonstration purposes only I have a secondary BladeTech Kydex holster included holding a SigArms GSR whihc is a fullsize 1911.

Top View - Belt

Note the dual holster 'pockets' one in the 5 O'Clock kidney position with an FBI cant and the second at the 11 O'Clock weakside appendix position.


Top View - Holster Pocket / Kidney

This is a close up view of the kidney position holster slot where the gun is actually placed and carried, very securely I might add.


Top View - Holster Pocket / Reverse Kidney aka 'Anti-Carjacker'

As an option the Beltster can be outfitted with a second holster slot basically anywhere around it's circumference. In specific though they offer an option called the 'Anti-Carjacker' option. It's a reverse holster grip on the weakhand side allowing for a righty to access their weapon while seated & belted up in the car. It works well, I've tried it.


Front View - As Worn & Holstered

The belt is set to notch one as I normally would wear it when having two guns holstered. With on gun I'd then cinch it down to the second of five notches.

Top View - Strongside Kidney

This a 4.5" 1911 CCO style which is a commander slide on an officer frame.


Side View - Strongside Kidney

Note this Belster fits & carries like a Yaqui slide style holster.
As such the slide is exposed with just the trigger assy covered as shown here.


Top View - Weakside 'Anti-Carjacker'

Note that the grip face is facing frontal and toward the belt buckle.


Side View - Weakside 'Anti-Carjacker'



High Frontal View - Fullpack

This is a fully loaded Belster along with a Blade-Tech single mag carrier as well as a Blade-Tech custom molded OWB holster with a fullsize Govt. model 1911. Do know the full size is a heavy ass gun as it's full steel with a tactical rail.


Side View - Fullpack Strongside

Note position of the OWB Blade Tech holster. The belt as shown is rigged exactly as I would wear it on my person. There is plenty of room for the two sidearms on the same side and in theory I could likely fit another OWB on my weakside and likely and IWB too (eg. CTAC). Of course no one needs to carry five firearms at once but it just goes to show how flexible this system can be as well as integrate with product you might already own.


Rear View - Fullpack



Side View - Fullpack Weakside


Yes I have worn all three loaded and concealed.
Although I would not do so with regularity nor can I think of any valid reason to do so I did wear the rig on a dare exactly as depicted on my person (the basket just happened to be the same diameter as my waist) to WalMart, the grocer and the hardware store in my very much far left leaning and largely anti-gun town (Western MA). There was not an eye lifted and no one was the wiser. An ultimate test was I wore the rig past my wife who is very much anti and she didn't spot anythig unusual although if she'd tried to hug me then she would have banged into the GSR in the BladeTech holster.

I wear the Bandera as my primary daily carry system everywhere and thats pretty much it.
All I can say is that it works exactly as advertised, saves you coin, is very low key looking like a 'regular' belt when the holster slots are unoccupied and it just flat works.

- Janq is a satisfied customer :)

Note: I do not get any kickbacks or such from the Bandera folks and I paid straight retail for my own.
 
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