Another example of shot placement mattering much more than ammo choice.
Eli Dickens' Gun
1 - 20 of 111 Posts
No, it has to be 45acp or 10mm and the latest greatest expanding JHP! That's what all the "experts" and most in the firearm community who drank the Kool-Aid will tell you.Another example of shot placement mattering much more than ammo choice.
I feel into that way of thinking when I purchased my 45acp Shield and other expensive ammo. After looking at the data and numbers, I've come to the conclusion that 9mm is the best all around round based on price, capacity, and performance more so than 10mm or any of these other rounds. It's all about penetration and shot placement.
Many aren't going to like the optics of the OP because it goes against everything they've been lead to believe.
It is not that a plain jane 9mm FMJ will not work. Good hollow points work better, more consistently. I want every advantage I can get. This guy got in the fight and ended it. It was his skill. mindset and tactics that won the day, not the FMJ. Very similar to the silvertip thread, it was skill, mindset and tactics not the bullet of choice that decided that.Many aren't going to like the optics of the OP because it goes against everything they've been lead to believe.
I didn't believe his results would have been any different had he used hollow points. A miss or non fatal hit with a hollow point isn't going to stop a threat simular to a FMJ. A hit to the vitals with a FMJ or JHP will stop a threat. I just no longer believe that caliber and bullet type is matters anywhere near as much as some claim it to be in all the holy war caliber debates.It is not that a plain jane 9mm FMJ will not work. Good hollow points work better, more consistently. I want every advantage I can get. This guy got in the fight and ended it. It was his skill. mindset and tactics that won the day, not the FMJ. Very similar to the silvertip thread, it was skill, mindset and tactics not the bullet of choice that decided that.
And let’s not forget, the target was at 43ish yards. Would HPs even “work” at that range? But with that said, I will echo Bad Bob’s comments and say the kid had skills and that matters more than the tools.
And it’s good to see a stock well worn G19 posted than a Gucci looking monstrosity will gills and “lightning” cuts. LOL
And it’s good to see a stock well worn G19 posted than a Gucci looking monstrosity will gills and “lightning” cuts. LOL
he did hit the
The mall shooter was hit 8 times ?? Maybe a lucky head shot stopped him from shooting more . So do not assume shot's to the so called Vitals will stop a person dead set on killing people unless a well placed brain or high on the body spine shot over any thing else for a fast stop to a gun fight . Now a hit to most vital's can kill you BUT that can take time and you want a BG down and out now , right ? Thats a brain / spine shot .
How many vitals need to be hit to stop a person quickly ?? Well other than a well center brain shot on high on the body spine hit , 2 6, 8 how about 13, nope not necessarily . You have read the story of the officer that put 13 rounds into all of a bad man hit all his vitals before a head shot put him down and thats with a 45 auto . All though many of the 37 rounds he fire . If you do not remember the story - Why I Carry 145 Rounds read it . That bad guy was sober and drug free , just a crazed mad man .I didn't believe his results would have been any different had he used hollow points. A miss or non fatal hit with a hollow point isn't going to stop a threat simular to a FMJ. A hit to the vitals with a FMJ or JHP will stop a threat. I just no longer believe that caliber and bullet type is matters anywhere near as much as some claim it to be in all the holy war caliber debates.
The mall shooter was hit 8 times ?? Maybe a lucky head shot stopped him from shooting more . So do not assume shot's to the so called Vitals will stop a person dead set on killing people unless a well placed brain or high on the body spine shot over any thing else for a fast stop to a gun fight . Now a hit to most vital's can kill you BUT that can take time and you want a BG down and out now , right ? Thats a brain / spine shot .
I don't worry about what other people can do with their choices of carry guns and ammo. I do care about what I can do with mine. An Angus Young signature SG won't make me play like Angus Young.
Guys who want to parse this stuff and then argue over it should maybe get out and shoot more... JMO, of course.
Guys who want to parse this stuff and then argue over it should maybe get out and shoot more... JMO, of course.
Clearly the young man does not seem to subscribe to all the romanticism that is so common among todays gun owners. What this weapon says to me is that the owner see's it as a tool. Based on his performance on that day in the mall, I suspect the young man knew his away around that glock and had the personal grit and emotional control necessary to put down the threat. To me, this is exactly what a carry weapon should probably look like and is rather indicative of a person who is about the business of a weapon and not some sort of affinity with it. As far as his ammo choice goes, its just something to go "bang" and the rest is up to him. Honestly it is refreshing to see a carrier that is simply practical and not bewitched by some desire to be majestic.
I’ve never seen anyone make hollow points that stop working at a certain distance. self defense ammo tends to expand which means bigger hole. It also tends to travel faster which means deeper hole. I fail to see how this incident makes an argument for using FMJ. I could find a story about someone using a .22 for self defense but it’s still just anecdotal. Sure, shot placement is the most important thing, but if I have a gun that can hold 15 rounds of ammunition Id rather have 15 rounds of better ammunition.And let’s not forget, the target was at 43ish yards. Would HPs even “work” at that range? But with that said, I will echo Bad Bob’s comments and say the kid had skills and that matters more than the tools.
And it’s good to see a stock well worn G19 posted than a Gucci looking monstrosity will gills and “lightning” cuts. LOL
very well statedIt is not that a plain jane 9mm FMJ will not work. Good hollow points work better, more consistently. I want every advantage I can get. This guy got in the fight and ended it. It was his skill. mindset and tactics that won the day, not the FMJ. Very similar to the silvertip thread, it was skill, mindset and tactics not the bullet of choice that decided that.
He killed the guy within 10 seconds of opening fire. I'm not sure how much more hollow point bullets could have changed that.I didn't believe his results would have been any different had he used hollow points.
I don't know anybody that hunts that uses Full Metal Jacket ammunition because it's considered unethical. Everybody I know that hunts uses some form of expanding ammunition because it puts the animal down quicker and more humanely. FMJ hunting ammunition isn't even legal in Oklahoma.
I think there's something to learn in that
The warrior counts for so much more than the tool.
If he had been using JHPs instead of FMJ, maybe he wouldn't have found it necessary to shoot him eight times.
If he had been carrying a tricked-out PDP instead of a plain Jane Glock, maybe he wouldn't have needed to move closer for the remainder of his partial mag dump...
If he had been carrying a tricked-out PDP instead of a plain Jane Glock, maybe he wouldn't have needed to move closer for the remainder of his partial mag dump...
Those groundhogs never complained as I popped them with 5.56 ball...He killed the guy within 10 seconds of opening fire. I'm not sure how much more hollow point bullets could have changed that.
I don't know anybody that hunts that uses Full Metal Jacket ammunition because it's considered unethical. Everybody I know that hunts uses some form of expanding ammunition because it puts the animal down quicker and more humanely. FMJ hunting ammunition isn't even legal in Oklahoma.
I think there's something to learn in that
It helps if they aren't carrying single-shot jammomatic Springfield carbines...The warrior counts for so much more than the tool.
..was speaking of this pistol vs that pistol. This bullet design vs that bullet.It helps if they aren't carrying single-shot jammomatic Springfield carbines...
I don't disagree with you, Having seen shootings and people die I believe it is more of degrees differences, not necessarily magnitudes. Now if Eli had been using say a 357 Sig with some good HP's I think instead of staggering with the first two hits I think it would have been over just that fast.I didn't believe his results would have been any different had he used hollow points. A miss or non fatal hit with a hollow point isn't going to stop a threat simular to a FMJ. A hit to the vitals with a FMJ or JHP will stop a threat. I just no longer believe that caliber and bullet type is matters anywhere near as much as some claim it to be in all the holy war caliber debates.
I think this belongs in this category;He killed the guy within 10 seconds of opening fire. I'm not sure how much more hollow point bullets could have changed that.
I don't know anybody that hunts that uses Full Metal Jacket ammunition because it's considered unethical. Everybody I know that hunts uses some form of expanding ammunition because it puts the animal down quicker and more humanely. FMJ hunting ammunition isn't even legal in Oklahoma.
I think there's something to learn in that
Even a blind squirrel finds the occasional nut.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about warriors, and tools.....was speaking of this pistol vs that pistol. This bullet design vs that bullet.
1 - 20 of 111 Posts
Defensive Carry
A forum community dedicated to defensive firearm owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about everyday carry, optics, holsters, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Top Contributors this Month
View All
SatCong
1038 Replies
OldVet
469 Replies
LimaCharlie
266 Replies
