Extreme Shock Ammunition
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QKShooter Weighs In On Extreme Shock
Well, I'm never too quick to slam a product into the ground just because its marketing department is over~zealous/over~enthusiastic.
Bigger, better, stronger, faster, lighter, brighter, etc., etc. That is what sells BEST to most Americans these days. That is usually how all new, modern products get promoted.
So...maybe Extreme Shock is Extremely Over~Marketed but, it still could be a highly effective cartridge for its intended purpose.
Over marketing does not always equal under performance.
So I wouldn't be too tough on the invented word/element "Ny Trillium." ~
My computer is a Pentium & that particular word isn't in the dictionary either. What the heck is a Pentium?
For instance I was very wary of the GLASER Safety Slug (way back when) it first arrived on the "magic bullet" scene but it is quite effective for its intended purpose. I tested it myself with $125.00 of my hard earned American dollars & I was happy enough with what I witnessed (first hand) to carry a full extra spare mag full of Glasers. I still do. It is ABSOLUTELY NONricochet & extremely reliable.
You'll will have to check the following information out for yourself from GLASER (though I heard it on decently good authority) that no Bad Guy (to date) has ever survived ~ AKA "lived" after being hit with a C.O.M. Glaser Slug.
So...the bottom line is that I would sure be willing to allow "Extreme Shock" to prove itself...without slamming it YET...as total nonsense right off the bat.
I mean nobody ever thought that green bread mold could kill infection in the human body either & then "Viola!" then there was Penicillin.
So...I could see how a bullet research company could concoct a special alloy or bullet material composition that would self fragment into explosive dust & they would hafta call it something.
Due to the fast rotation of the bullet in flight & IF the projectile instantly fragmented into particles ~ those particles would still obviously be spiral directionally rotating & (I'm Guessing) could create an "in body" vortex effect at super high velocity. I'm willing to wait and see.
Also don't forget...It's possible to have "10" different "high tech" bullets hit the market in a row that are ALL TOTAL BS but, ~ that does not mean that Bullet Number 11 will not be fantastic.
They all need to be judged on their own merit and individual worth.
Time Will Tell.
Well, I'm never too quick to slam a product into the ground just because its marketing department is over~zealous/over~enthusiastic.
Bigger, better, stronger, faster, lighter, brighter, etc., etc. That is what sells BEST to most Americans these days. That is usually how all new, modern products get promoted.
So...maybe Extreme Shock is Extremely Over~Marketed but, it still could be a highly effective cartridge for its intended purpose.
Over marketing does not always equal under performance.
So I wouldn't be too tough on the invented word/element "Ny Trillium." ~
My computer is a Pentium & that particular word isn't in the dictionary either. What the heck is a Pentium?
For instance I was very wary of the GLASER Safety Slug (way back when) it first arrived on the "magic bullet" scene but it is quite effective for its intended purpose. I tested it myself with $125.00 of my hard earned American dollars & I was happy enough with what I witnessed (first hand) to carry a full extra spare mag full of Glasers. I still do. It is ABSOLUTELY NONricochet & extremely reliable.
You'll will have to check the following information out for yourself from GLASER (though I heard it on decently good authority) that no Bad Guy (to date) has ever survived ~ AKA "lived" after being hit with a C.O.M. Glaser Slug.
So...the bottom line is that I would sure be willing to allow "Extreme Shock" to prove itself...without slamming it YET...as total nonsense right off the bat.
I mean nobody ever thought that green bread mold could kill infection in the human body either & then "Viola!" then there was Penicillin.
So...I could see how a bullet research company could concoct a special alloy or bullet material composition that would self fragment into explosive dust & they would hafta call it something.
Due to the fast rotation of the bullet in flight & IF the projectile instantly fragmented into particles ~ those particles would still obviously be spiral directionally rotating & (I'm Guessing) could create an "in body" vortex effect at super high velocity. I'm willing to wait and see.
Also don't forget...It's possible to have "10" different "high tech" bullets hit the market in a row that are ALL TOTAL BS but, ~ that does not mean that Bullet Number 11 will not be fantastic.
They all need to be judged on their own merit and individual worth.
Time Will Tell.
So we have our devil's advocate, thanks for bringing it back into perspective. I have seen frangibles fail miserably but I too am curious, if nothing else the pictures are interesting. That boar looks like a Damn Wookie, I bet Chewbacca is seriously pissed.
~A
~A
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One Thought
I am ALWAYS very ricochet concerned.
Maybe I'm OVER ricochet concerned.
But ricochet is when we (as defensive shooters) LOSE TOTAL CONTROL over the "killing projectile" that WE put "out there" into the world.
I live in a heavily populated area & a friend of mine had an Uncle (who owned a small Dry Cleaning Company) & he was killed during a robbery attempt (gone bad) by a ricocheted bullet that was originally intended for the sales clerk at the front counter. He was three rooms back in the store & it was a freak thing.
It is a concern that we should all have.
That is the main reason that I never carry .45 hardball.
Just my personal opinion.
I am ALWAYS very ricochet concerned.
Maybe I'm OVER ricochet concerned.
But ricochet is when we (as defensive shooters) LOSE TOTAL CONTROL over the "killing projectile" that WE put "out there" into the world.
I live in a heavily populated area & a friend of mine had an Uncle (who owned a small Dry Cleaning Company) & he was killed during a robbery attempt (gone bad) by a ricocheted bullet that was originally intended for the sales clerk at the front counter. He was three rooms back in the store & it was a freak thing.
It is a concern that we should all have.
That is the main reason that I never carry .45 hardball.
Just my personal opinion.
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1,375 Posts
Defensive Carry Ammo
Personally I carry Federal 230 grain HydraShocks. In all the testing of ammo I have done for terminal ballistics performance they are the most reliable. They feed well in most any gun and are very consistent in their expansion. I have tested Cor-bon, Winchester Black Talon, SXT as well. My feeling is with a 45 is as long as you place the round in the center of mass and it does not over penetrate then you have all you need. Just an opinion guys but the 230 Hydrashock is the way to go. (Remember to always hurl the biggest hunk of lead you can in the bad guys direction.) Frangible ammo while impressive will only give the lawyers more ammo to fire at you over your intent to KILL the bad guy. As I say, just an opinion from someone who has been there for 30+ years.
Personally I carry Federal 230 grain HydraShocks. In all the testing of ammo I have done for terminal ballistics performance they are the most reliable. They feed well in most any gun and are very consistent in their expansion. I have tested Cor-bon, Winchester Black Talon, SXT as well. My feeling is with a 45 is as long as you place the round in the center of mass and it does not over penetrate then you have all you need. Just an opinion guys but the 230 Hydrashock is the way to go. (Remember to always hurl the biggest hunk of lead you can in the bad guys direction.) Frangible ammo while impressive will only give the lawyers more ammo to fire at you over your intent to KILL the bad guy. As I say, just an opinion from someone who has been there for 30+ years.
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1,375 Posts
They are viewed by lawyers as more lethal because of the wound cavities they are designed to inflict. Their argument is the same for handloaded ammo, that you loaded this +P+ low yield tactical nuclear bullet just for killing your adversary rather than just to stop his aggressive behavior. We all know that if you shoot someone your purpose is not to kill and not wound. That is NOT what you want to say in a court of law, but that is the intent. IMHO.
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Added Thought
One of the reasons I can tell already that this forum is going to be so doggone valuable to me is that many of you guys are "Out In It" Right Now & Today as Military, LEO, & instructors, and just all 'round brilliant gun people.
You are extremely valuable sources of current & updated technique, product, firearm & ballistic information.
My life has taken a slightly different direction these days & I am now looking forward to painting a little & getting back into sculpting.
And...actually relaxing at home a bit!
My days of buying slabs of pig ribs & "begging" large spoiled chunks of half rotten beef from the old Neville Island slaughterhouse ~ in order to test bullet penetration are over. Thank God!
I still have my keen and never-ending love for fine firearms & ALWAYS interested in new bullet performance.
So...I am "feeding off of" & learning from all you fine folks!
Heck...I got Bumper & Nighthawk & others going to the Shot Show for me!
I got the floor plan for the Shot Show right at my fingertips...Fantastic!
Just wanted to mention that I sure do appreciate your knowledge & your very generous information sharing.
And...I love reading it when you "mix it up" a little bit! You are all great!
One of the reasons I can tell already that this forum is going to be so doggone valuable to me is that many of you guys are "Out In It" Right Now & Today as Military, LEO, & instructors, and just all 'round brilliant gun people.
You are extremely valuable sources of current & updated technique, product, firearm & ballistic information.
My life has taken a slightly different direction these days & I am now looking forward to painting a little & getting back into sculpting.
And...actually relaxing at home a bit!
My days of buying slabs of pig ribs & "begging" large spoiled chunks of half rotten beef from the old Neville Island slaughterhouse ~ in order to test bullet penetration are over. Thank God!
I still have my keen and never-ending love for fine firearms & ALWAYS interested in new bullet performance.
So...I am "feeding off of" & learning from all you fine folks!
Heck...I got Bumper & Nighthawk & others going to the Shot Show for me!
I got the floor plan for the Shot Show right at my fingertips...Fantastic!
Just wanted to mention that I sure do appreciate your knowledge & your very generous information sharing.
And...I love reading it when you "mix it up" a little bit! You are all great!
QK, I too share your sentiment. I have learned quite a bit already from this forum and I am sure that will only go up with each and every new forum member. I have already been offered an invite back to the SHOT Show for next year. That I am definitely going to take up.
~A
~A
Yeah, I heard that, too. In the article I read (I forgot where) it said that the only real way that shooting a few rounds would possibly cause a problem would be if you just happened to cut a hydraulic line or electrical wiring, but even that was not likely.silvercorvette said:
Well, obviously, I have never used the ammunition either but I will add a couple of observations. Their claims do seem a little over the top, but they are tasked at breaking into market where most people have already made up their mind what they are going to trust in the weapon. And trust is not something they are going to earn until some history of the round exists or someone better than me runs a real test on it that says "yey" or "nay" to their claims. While I am skeptical of things like this as well, like QKShooter, I won't rule them out. If Winchester or Federal or Remington would have made the exact same claim, for the exact same ammunition, made out of the same "ny trillium", with the exact same name we would all be willing to try it (if it was affordable). Right now, the price is a little rich for my blood to shoot too much of it but I would not hesitate to at least try it.
I have no clue what "ny trillium" really is, but if you don't trust the integrity of modern plastics/composites, all of you that love a plastic frame may want to start looking for a different gun. That being said, there is a plastic nose on their "Air Freedom Rounds" that sorta looks like a kid's toy :frog:
Bet my life on it at this point? Hell no! But if their claims prove to be true, I might. I say "might" because I have the same concerns voiced above about a lawyer in court raking me over the coals over a particular round's physical characteristics or name. Our CCW instructor recommended carrying the same thing that the local police carry on duty. In Mesa, AZ that's Golden Sabers....
I have no clue what "ny trillium" really is, but if you don't trust the integrity of modern plastics/composites, all of you that love a plastic frame may want to start looking for a different gun. That being said, there is a plastic nose on their "Air Freedom Rounds" that sorta looks like a kid's toy :frog:
Bet my life on it at this point? Hell no! But if their claims prove to be true, I might. I say "might" because I have the same concerns voiced above about a lawyer in court raking me over the coals over a particular round's physical characteristics or name. Our CCW instructor recommended carrying the same thing that the local police carry on duty. In Mesa, AZ that's Golden Sabers....
I carry RBCD ammo www.rbcd.net same concept but better results and approval
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The Courtroom Argument For Frangible Ammo
Cuts both ways.
On the one hand you have the possible "extra severe" wound channel and bodily damage to the BG ~ but that is very much counterbalanced by the lack of ricochet & penetration through walls, etc. in order to decrease the likelihood of possible injury to innocent and non~involved bystanders.
So...YOU have selected your particular ammo to better protect the general public rather than to cause more harm to the perp.
As long as the manufacturer of the frangible ammo CAREFULLY selects the correct name for their product you should be OK in court.
I do not think you want to carry any defensive ammo called "Grim Reaper II" or BlackDeath or SkullBuster...for the very same reason that you do not want to have Skull & Crossbones or Black Widow Spider grips on your self defensive carry pistol.
Somebody sure will "grab that ball" & run away with it in court and it will NOT EVER be to your advantage.
That is the main reason I go with Glaser SAFETY Slugs rather than Black Talon.
Cuts both ways.
On the one hand you have the possible "extra severe" wound channel and bodily damage to the BG ~ but that is very much counterbalanced by the lack of ricochet & penetration through walls, etc. in order to decrease the likelihood of possible injury to innocent and non~involved bystanders.
So...YOU have selected your particular ammo to better protect the general public rather than to cause more harm to the perp.
As long as the manufacturer of the frangible ammo CAREFULLY selects the correct name for their product you should be OK in court.
I do not think you want to carry any defensive ammo called "Grim Reaper II" or BlackDeath or SkullBuster...for the very same reason that you do not want to have Skull & Crossbones or Black Widow Spider grips on your self defensive carry pistol.
Somebody sure will "grab that ball" & run away with it in court and it will NOT EVER be to your advantage.
That is the main reason I go with Glaser SAFETY Slugs rather than Black Talon.
Doc Roberts and David DiFabio, along with Shawn Dodson are generally acknowledged to be the top experts on ammunition performance. Doc and David have both tested RBCD ammo and found it to perform poorly. The owner of RBCD, Stan Bulmer, has been conducting a running battle with Doc on other forums for months. He claims his ammo has some sort of magical ability to perform differently in people than in standard tests. Doc is currently doing extensive tests of this ammo to settle this debate.
Glasers have been shown to work well in some circumstances, but poorly in others. Consider that you may have to shoot through an arm which it won't penetrate.
The bottom line is there is no magic bullet. Ammo like Ranger T, Golden Sabers and Gold Dots have a proven track record with LE and federal agencies.
Glasers have been shown to work well in some circumstances, but poorly in others. Consider that you may have to shoot through an arm which it won't penetrate.
The bottom line is there is no magic bullet. Ammo like Ranger T, Golden Sabers and Gold Dots have a proven track record with LE and federal agencies.
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My main concern is to stay alive long enough to get to court. I think Hydra-Shoks will do that better the Glaser. I don't care if Hydra-Shoks have a incorrect name. If they keep me alive I will deal with the name in court. I prefer to select ammo on the basis of how well it has preformed over time. I am not against new technology but I am going to stick to what has worked in the past. I just wait a few years to see how well this new stuff works before I make any changes.QKShooter said:
Dr. Martin L. Fackler served as a combat surgeon in Vietman in 1968. A fellow of both the American College of Surgeons and the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, he also is an author, expert witness and lecturer on wound ballistics and surgery, and former director of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory at Presidio.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm
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I was trying to find that link, thank you for finding it for me, I was aware of it and that is why I don’t use Mag safe or and other fancy frangible ammo. But I try to keep an open mind to new technology. I will keep an eye on any new stuff and read all the tests but I won’t use it till I am satisfied it has proven it self in the field for a few years.FLM said:
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