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Discussion Starter #1
Please remember that there is a velocity trade~off for those really short barreled nifty .233 "pistols" that are neither pistol nor rifle & I suspect cannot function as either too very well.

The critical minimum velocity for obtaining maximum terminal performance from .223 Remington/5.56mm ammunition is approximately 2700 fps.
Bullets that are propelled below this velocity do not provide optimal terminal performance, and thus are less capable of creating wound trauma that will produce rapid incapacitation of a criminal attacker.
 

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I was having fun handling the Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 97s Pistol at the gun show. It looks like a load of (expensive) fun.

But for defensive purposes, it seems to make much more sense (if I were to choose an AR-type pistol) having the 9mm version. I lose the convenience of having mags I can switch back and forth from my AR carbine to the little AR .223 pistol, but the 9mm caliber in that short barrel makes more practical sense.
 

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Several years ago, I got to shoot a DPMS "kitty cat" - it's an M16 type carbine (fully automatic) with I believe a 7 1/2" barrel. The owner of DPMS said that if they build two, one will run and one won't -- he said it's just odd getting the gas system to function with such a short barrel. I don't know what the velocity would be for a 223 with such a short barrel.
The positive aspect of this firearm was that it had twin drums feeding it (I can't recall the name of the company that makes them, just that they're expensive). With two drums of ammo, the carbine balances pretty well, and the twin drum system actually worked. So, full auto fire was amazingly controllable. It did have a spectacular amount of muzzle flash, though.
I am not in law enforcement or ex-military, so I can only speculate that something like this might be used for an entry gun or firing within a very small space.
Personally, despite the low velocity of the 223 rounds, the kitty cat was so easy to shoot accurately that I'd feel quite well armed with one at home.
(I don't remember what it cost, but it was well out of my reach + a title 3 new production that I couldn't own anyway + it was just stupidly easy to run through the 100 rounds that the drums held...)
 

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I still wouldn't want to be hit with one regardless of "optimium velocity".....just my $.02!
 

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Good as a flame thrower, or if you can't carry flash-bangs. Absolutely brutal, on both ends of the barrel, fired in close quarters.:duh:
 

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Well if Keltec gets the bugs out of their .223 pistol and the actual selling prices stay about the same I'll be getting one.
Mainly as a range toy plus a little coyote hunting if they prove to be accurate enough.
They even state on their website that muzzle velocity is 2600fps, which is a big drop for .223rds.
 

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I'm nearing the end of my build project, and with a 16" barrel my rifle has a pleasantly short profile. Granted I've only run it through my own domicile but it handles the tight corners just fine, much handier and quicker than my shotgun. I can't imagine scaling it down much more.
 

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I was thinking my Contender .223 barrel might be called short at 14" but no - I might just say ''marginal'' - it sure as heck shoots very accurately but I have not yet chrono'd.

I do expect tho once down toward the 10" and below - the round really (in factory loadings) is being ''wasted''. Probably 16" and up is where the results become very satisfactory.
 

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Gotta agree with Betty. If I were to get a shorty AR, it would be a pistol caliber. I thought I read that the short barrelled AR's had bullet stabilization problems as well.
 

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If the new Kel-Tec PL-6 pistol seems to get worked out, I may actually buy one. I think it'd make a great truck gun for trips.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The PL~6 sure does have some cool factor. 2600FPS is a goodly drop in MV ~ probably actually 2550 (you know how that usually goes:biggrin2: )
On the plus side the ammo is inexpensive & terminal things obviously change considerably with multiple consecutive hits.

7.5" .223 barrel....Fancy That. :biggrin2:
Full auto...that's cool!
That sure does up the odds a bit for quick multiple hits.
 

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So you're saying using this as a CCW might not work out?



:image035:
 

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Shorty AR does that sound familiar?
Yes and no - I am digging thru memory, not totally satisfactorily!
 

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Sorry Ed - being dumb as all get out tonight. :rolleyes:

Yes indeed - click-click - on your page dude :smile: But we should add in the can and conversion unit, n'est pas? :18:
 

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Oh yeah can't forget those.

Or the "chopped pocket Star BM" with the armour piercing, pre-fragmented, hyper-sonic, cast zinc bullets as back up.:blink: :stups: :haha:
 

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I guess there is something to have achieved internet fame Ed - or is that infamy?

No - PITA status more like LOL!
 
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