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I have a PPH (really a walther PP knock off), that was my first pistol. Never had it jam on me. Mine's in 380 and not 9x18, though. I've since moved on to others, but would not hesitate to load it up again.
FEG PPK's and Makarovs
I was at a shop today, and noticed several Makarovs and FEG Hungarian PPKs pistols, all in the 9x18 caliber. They ranged in price from 155.00 to 225.00... with the FEG PPKs at the lower end of the spectrum. They were imported by Century Arms in VT. I'm wondering, how many of you have , or have had any of these pistols, and the reliability factor for those of us who don't have the bottomless pockets for most of the weapons we carry and shoot in the Forum. I'm posting so that we might have a better understanding of the little guns that the Com Bloc countries manufactured and carried, and used quite effectively. :biggrin:
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Bob - I have a Mak - love the little beastie. Some dislike the heel mag release but actually it is not that bad. Many still go for $149 at gun shows - everyone should pick one up!
Those are the Bulgarians usually. East German and Russian ones are harder to find and usually cost more. Mine is Bulgy import but - Russian origin as seen by left side where there is a circle with a triangle inside. Paid just over $200 for that one.
I also have a PJK-9HP FEG - so OK that's 9x19 but hey - before I got my BHP Practical it was closest to that I could manage. It shoots just great and even without mag safety removed has a well acceptable trigger. I do not think metallurgically it would go the distance compared with genuine Browning or FN but for price it is nice and I will keep mine for occasional plinking. Takes regular BHP mags OK too.
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Those are the Bulgarians usually. East German and Russian ones are harder to find and usually cost more. Mine is Bulgy import but - Russian origin as seen by left side where there is a circle with a triangle inside. Paid just over $200 for that one.
I also have a PJK-9HP FEG - so OK that's 9x19 but hey - before I got my BHP Practical it was closest to that I could manage. It shoots just great and even without mag safety removed has a well acceptable trigger. I do not think metallurgically it would go the distance compared with genuine Browning or FN but for price it is nice and I will keep mine for occasional plinking. Takes regular BHP mags OK too.
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Hi Chris and Pepsi
Yes I have found these guns you've mentioned to nice little hidden gems, especially for the fist gun people. They're less costly, and they work like clockwork. I noticed one today (looks like a PPK or a PPKs but in x18) Polished frame with blue slide, it was offerd to me by me dealer friend I've known for 30 yrs for 110.00 (his price tag was 155.00) The mag kinda stuck a little as it was inserted, but other than that it was REALLY nice. Bluing was very thick. My Brother-in-law has a FEG double action Hi Power clone (he's had it for almost 17 yrs now, and it eats everything) bought it for 175.00 back then in Florida. I've also looked at the Makarovs also. Thye're very interesting as well. GREAT shooters so I've been told. I'm glad the thread is started, because I'm sure you guys can lead quite a few of us toward some affordable guns.
Another question is, the recoil. How is it, the 9x18, compared to the .32, .380, 9mm, or 9x18 ultra? I ask this, due to the curiosity factor. Might be a good subject :biggrin:
BTW, the PPKs clone I saw today was stamped "9MM short" but my friend told me it was chambered for 9x18. I always thought 9mm short was .380 or 9mm Kurtz. :biggrin:
Yes I have found these guns you've mentioned to nice little hidden gems, especially for the fist gun people. They're less costly, and they work like clockwork. I noticed one today (looks like a PPK or a PPKs but in x18) Polished frame with blue slide, it was offerd to me by me dealer friend I've known for 30 yrs for 110.00 (his price tag was 155.00) The mag kinda stuck a little as it was inserted, but other than that it was REALLY nice. Bluing was very thick. My Brother-in-law has a FEG double action Hi Power clone (he's had it for almost 17 yrs now, and it eats everything) bought it for 175.00 back then in Florida. I've also looked at the Makarovs also. Thye're very interesting as well. GREAT shooters so I've been told. I'm glad the thread is started, because I'm sure you guys can lead quite a few of us toward some affordable guns.
Another question is, the recoil. How is it, the 9x18, compared to the .32, .380, 9mm, or 9x18 ultra? I ask this, due to the curiosity factor. Might be a good subject :biggrin:
BTW, the PPKs clone I saw today was stamped "9MM short" but my friend told me it was chambered for 9x18. I always thought 9mm short was .380 or 9mm Kurtz. :biggrin:
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I too Bob thought ''short'' would mean Kurtz. Still, so long as cartridge length is known then ID becomes easy.
Recoil? Well the Mak is not really a lightweight - all steel so has some weight - let me go weigh mine - BRB -
Bit over 1 1/2# dry weight - so loaded of course a few ounces more. Doesn't ''sound'' heavy but compared with KelTec type stuff with polymer frames it does have some ''substance''. I'd say recoil was actually better/more pleasant than a P3AT - more to hold and so on. Some torque effect but that is hardly unusual in such platforms.
In use? A very (to me) controllable piece and I'd even use it for carry if I had to downsize and lacked other options. Because they are such good value I'd say to any gunnie - go get one anyways if only for the hell of it.!!
Another cheap gun is the CZ-52 - ugly sob but there is some fun shooting the 7.62x25 round .... some muzzle flash too! These are about $100 region from the ''usual'' sources ... SOG etc. Well worth getting, ''just to have one" :smile:
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Recoil? Well the Mak is not really a lightweight - all steel so has some weight - let me go weigh mine - BRB -
Bit over 1 1/2# dry weight - so loaded of course a few ounces more. Doesn't ''sound'' heavy but compared with KelTec type stuff with polymer frames it does have some ''substance''. I'd say recoil was actually better/more pleasant than a P3AT - more to hold and so on. Some torque effect but that is hardly unusual in such platforms.
In use? A very (to me) controllable piece and I'd even use it for carry if I had to downsize and lacked other options. Because they are such good value I'd say to any gunnie - go get one anyways if only for the hell of it.!!
Another cheap gun is the CZ-52 - ugly sob but there is some fun shooting the 7.62x25 round .... some muzzle flash too! These are about $100 region from the ''usual'' sources ... SOG etc. Well worth getting, ''just to have one" :smile:
I'm looking at a possibility for my first gun also, a walther PPK/S Stainless by Interarms. A friend of mine is looking to sell it to "somebody he knows".
I'll let you know what I think when I actually get to shoot it this week but so far it seems to be light, easily concealable and affordable.
I'm taking it on vacation with me so I'll let you know how I make out.
Mike
I'll let you know what I think when I actually get to shoot it this week but so far it seems to be light, easily concealable and affordable.
I'm taking it on vacation with me so I'll let you know how I make out.
Mike
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OOOOOO LP if it's a true Interarms Walther, and you can snag it for reasonable $$ then go for it. The newer Walthers are coming in stamped with the Smith and Wesson markings. A nice German or Interarms Walther would be a GREAT find.. :biggrin: Good luck with it, and I'm sure you'll enjoy shooting it too :biggrin:
LOL..Chris...you're too funny. "Lemme go weigh mine" LOL......you're as bad as I am when it comes to your guns LOL.....Then again, that's NOT a bad thing you know. :biggrin: This PPK Hungarian FEG R61 is polished frame, with blue slide. Looks just like a PPK, but in the rough. It's stamped 9MM short on the BBL, but they tell me it's a Makarov Ctg.. I tend to think it's a .380 .if so..for 125.0 it's a cheap shooter. and if it's a 9x18 Mak...it's just as good. Just thought it was a neat little gun for short money. If it works as well as you say, then I'd stake my life on it as a BUG :biggrin:
LOL..Chris...you're too funny. "Lemme go weigh mine" LOL......you're as bad as I am when it comes to your guns LOL.....Then again, that's NOT a bad thing you know. :biggrin: This PPK Hungarian FEG R61 is polished frame, with blue slide. Looks just like a PPK, but in the rough. It's stamped 9MM short on the BBL, but they tell me it's a Makarov Ctg.. I tend to think it's a .380 .if so..for 125.0 it's a cheap shooter. and if it's a 9x18 Mak...it's just as good. Just thought it was a neat little gun for short money. If it works as well as you say, then I'd stake my life on it as a BUG :biggrin:
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Walther PPK/S
Remember that Walther PPK/S pistols are usually a bit finicky as to ammo selection. Ball ammo is never a problem.
You need to try at least several brands of hollowpoints and then stick with whatever brand feeds perfectly.
They are great high quality pistols though.
That first DA trigger pull is sometimes a tad bit on the heavy side but, it's OK.
The pistol "thumb cocks" easily.
ONLY BUY FACTORY WALTHER MAGAZINES or MecGar.
I have one & I'll try to post pics of mine here tomorrow.
Remember that Walther PPK/S pistols are usually a bit finicky as to ammo selection. Ball ammo is never a problem.
You need to try at least several brands of hollowpoints and then stick with whatever brand feeds perfectly.
They are great high quality pistols though.
That first DA trigger pull is sometimes a tad bit on the heavy side but, it's OK.
The pistol "thumb cocks" easily.
ONLY BUY FACTORY WALTHER MAGAZINES or MecGar.
I have one & I'll try to post pics of mine here tomorrow.
We had some issues with the PPK-like FEGs at the shop in 9x18 - they didn't hold up to a lot of shooting in 1 of 3 sold.
In regular Makarov, I'm all for them with a few reservations. 1, the weight for what it is. 2, the trigger, and 3, their damnable ability to rust in carry situations. I have a secret stash of 9x18 Gold Dots, so ammo isn't an issue. However the weight generally is - it didn't sit well in my pocket. Now it's mostly a range curiosity or a BUG of a BUG or a throwaway piece. The issue I've always mentioned to folks wanting to buy one is that the ammo isn't necessarily available everywhere, so if you're the type to not stock up....
The CZ52s I can't honestly recommend for carry purposes. Some firing pins are brittle, and wear makes some of the decockers eventually turn into firing monsters. If one can be found cheaply (they were when they were available a few years back), the CZ-50/70 PPK-esque .32 is reliable in my experience, even if they do come with the world's worst DA trigger pull on the first shot that makes the safety almost moot.
In other budget carry guns, I've used TT-33s and their Chinese brethren before without issue - they have a lot of the same thin as a rail advantages for carry as a 1911, but again, rust is an issue. I also wouldn't have any problems recommending one of the cheaper Star 9mms that SOG has been dumping for a while, or even the Zastava M70 in .32 if budget was a real issue. The M70s have been good sellers and run just fine, and recoil is not an issue due to the steel frame. Again, I'm not fond of the caliber, but well, on a budget, gun is better than no gun.
In regular Makarov, I'm all for them with a few reservations. 1, the weight for what it is. 2, the trigger, and 3, their damnable ability to rust in carry situations. I have a secret stash of 9x18 Gold Dots, so ammo isn't an issue. However the weight generally is - it didn't sit well in my pocket. Now it's mostly a range curiosity or a BUG of a BUG or a throwaway piece. The issue I've always mentioned to folks wanting to buy one is that the ammo isn't necessarily available everywhere, so if you're the type to not stock up....
The CZ52s I can't honestly recommend for carry purposes. Some firing pins are brittle, and wear makes some of the decockers eventually turn into firing monsters. If one can be found cheaply (they were when they were available a few years back), the CZ-50/70 PPK-esque .32 is reliable in my experience, even if they do come with the world's worst DA trigger pull on the first shot that makes the safety almost moot.
In other budget carry guns, I've used TT-33s and their Chinese brethren before without issue - they have a lot of the same thin as a rail advantages for carry as a 1911, but again, rust is an issue. I also wouldn't have any problems recommending one of the cheaper Star 9mms that SOG has been dumping for a while, or even the Zastava M70 in .32 if budget was a real issue. The M70s have been good sellers and run just fine, and recoil is not an issue due to the steel frame. Again, I'm not fond of the caliber, but well, on a budget, gun is better than no gun.
Ooooh has this turned into a bargain handgun thread? I LOVE bargain handgun threads. :biggrin:
And I love this article on them too
http://www.doingfreedom.com/gen/0103/bargainpistols.html
And I love this article on them too
http://www.doingfreedom.com/gen/0103/bargainpistols.html
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As you probably know Robert - on Makarov.com - there are springs and pins available for the CZ-52. I threw in a 16.5# spring into mine straight away and have both a spare cast pin plus a machined one. Dry fire is biggest pin buster it seems.
Oh and to add - I distrust decockers hgowever ''safe'' they are - and when I even decock SIG - it is to safe direction (of course) and - I almost brace for ''bang'' LOL!
Oh and to add - I distrust decockers hgowever ''safe'' they are - and when I even decock SIG - it is to safe direction (of course) and - I almost brace for ''bang'' LOL!
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Wow Guys!! This IS taking on a good thread! :biggrin: Now we're talking about the more cost effective guns, even though they may be a little rough on the edges, they certainly have a following to say the least! :biggrin:
For those of us that want a first shooter, or a cheapo Bug or throw-away gun, they certainly fit the bill don't they? :biggrin:
When I placed the FEG against a Walther, for size, I found the FEG to be VERY close to the Walther. Even the Makarovs, in .380 are a bit tantalizing. For people on a very tight budget, or for just another fun toy, these seem to be right in the ball park. :biggrin:
For those of us that want a first shooter, or a cheapo Bug or throw-away gun, they certainly fit the bill don't they? :biggrin:
When I placed the FEG against a Walther, for size, I found the FEG to be VERY close to the Walther. Even the Makarovs, in .380 are a bit tantalizing. For people on a very tight budget, or for just another fun toy, these seem to be right in the ball park. :biggrin:
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Well....first off Ive had all of these guns. The FEG I "THINK" youre talking about is the PP copy. Its a PA63 with the brushed alloy frame/blued topend. Its a 9x18 Mak chambered gun.....most are mil. surplus and can be had for a song.
Last year they were 79$ from SOG/other places. They are a good gun...just replace the recoil spring often with a Wolf 19# unit.
They made the smaller PMK/SMC series that were modeled after the PPK/PPK's.
Ive got one of these thats my main pocket gun.....they are easily more reliable than the Interarms imported Walthers and rival the German/S&W versions in every regard. Yes Ive owned Walthers also.
The Makarov is an EXCELLENT gun.....trigger may need a little work. But other than that its on my top 5 list of all time favorites.
Shoot well.........
Last year they were 79$ from SOG/other places. They are a good gun...just replace the recoil spring often with a Wolf 19# unit.
They made the smaller PMK/SMC series that were modeled after the PPK/PPK's.
Ive got one of these thats my main pocket gun.....they are easily more reliable than the Interarms imported Walthers and rival the German/S&W versions in every regard. Yes Ive owned Walthers also.
The Makarov is an EXCELLENT gun.....trigger may need a little work. But other than that its on my top 5 list of all time favorites.
Shoot well.........
Actually to be very honest, if I wanted an inexpensive PPK style gun, I'd go get me one of them Bersas. I was the custodian of one for about 3 months and shot it a little bit. I was fairly impressed and I consider it to be an improvement on the PPK if anything. I considered getting one but I don't really need a .380 for anything.
Of course that's in the $200 range and not the $100 range.
Of course that's in the $200 range and not the $100 range.
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Euc - you beat me two it!!! I have a Bersa Thunder duo-tone and find it an excellent small piece - very comfortable to shoot and mine will even eat crap Russian ammo!
Mine resides most of time in a fanny pack - which I use rarely but if pick it up to take out perhaps with some documents, Mr Bersa is in there by default!
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Mine resides most of time in a fanny pack - which I use rarely but if pick it up to take out perhaps with some documents, Mr Bersa is in there by default!
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Yes Eric
The PMK/PMJ/SMC types in the PPK and PPKs are the ones I was looking at...great little cheapo pocket rocket gun indeed. The one I saw was chamberd in 9MM short, or commonly named .380 auto. prety cheap bug, or quick in-a-rush pocket gun. How can ya beat a price of 100.00 to 125.00 for that? :biggrin: ESPECIALLY if it works as well as you say it does. :biggrin:
The PMK/PMJ/SMC types in the PPK and PPKs are the ones I was looking at...great little cheapo pocket rocket gun indeed. The one I saw was chamberd in 9MM short, or commonly named .380 auto. prety cheap bug, or quick in-a-rush pocket gun. How can ya beat a price of 100.00 to 125.00 for that? :biggrin: ESPECIALLY if it works as well as you say it does. :biggrin:
Go with the Makarov BEST buy for the buck. They are forged steel not alloy of some kind will last almost forever, and if needed parts are available and easy to install with little fitting. The weight of the weapon is an advantage it helps tame the recoil of the 9X18 round.
I had the opportunity to shoot a Walther PPK .380, Russian Makaraov .380, and a KelTec P3AT side by side. The PPK and Makarov were comparable in accuracy, but the PPK was a bit smaller and lighter. The PPK jammed a lot on hollow points and it didn't seem very reliable. But like others have said, maybe we just had not found it's perfect ammo... The P3AT performed reliably without malfunction. I was amazed at how small that thing is. It ejects the shells about 20 feet in the air so not good if you collect brass for reloading. The Mak I now possess (it has been my fathers for many man years) and has never had a single malfunction to speak of despite the vast variety of different ammo we have put through it.
As far as handling, the P3AT was a stinger, but not unmanageable. The PPK was okay, but the double action trigger pull was horrendous. I personally enjoy shooting the makarov. Follow up is fast and easy. It pushes the 'pocket carry' envelope, but I can get away with it with baggy shorts or pants.
As far as handling, the P3AT was a stinger, but not unmanageable. The PPK was okay, but the double action trigger pull was horrendous. I personally enjoy shooting the makarov. Follow up is fast and easy. It pushes the 'pocket carry' envelope, but I can get away with it with baggy shorts or pants.
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