[gdm320]

Hey Everyone,

I was re-reading Jon Gutmacher's book Florida Firearm's Law this morning. This specific question is for anyone familiar with the book or the law.

In my Sixth Edition copy, Chapter Seven ends with the following excerpt:

You should know that in June 2006 the Legislature passed HB-285 which amends F.S. 252.36 and F.S. 870.044 - so that in any emergency firearms lawfully possessed may not be seized so long as the possessor is not engaged in the commission of a crime.
However, you should also be aware that it is a crime to possess a firearm in a "public place" during a declared "state of emergency", or to sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition during this period. A "state of emergency" can be declared by a sheriff or designated local official. A violation is a first degree misdemeanor. F.S. 870.048. Similar legislation is being considered in Congress.

Moral?

Stay at home with your rifle on the ready during any "declared emergency", and stash one at the office ahead of time, if you're a business owner - just in case you get stuck there."

This left me confused, so I decided to e-mail the author for clarification. I'd e-mailed him once before when I was confused on another point he'd made in the book. The following is my e-mail conversation with him.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon H. Gutmacher, P.A.
To: Greg McDonald
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:27 pm
Subject: Re: A question from your book

the 2009 edition for $29.95 fully answers your question whereas earlier versions were not as extensive. it depends on the wording of the governor's proclamation.

jhg

--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Greg McDonald <[email protected]> wrote:

From: Greg McDonald
Subject: A question from your book
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 10:33 AM

Mr. Gutmacher,

I had a question regarding something I read in your book I was hoping you would be so kind as to clarify.

In the Sixth Edition, the last section of Chapter Seven deals with "Declared Emergencies". From reading this, I take it that if a state of emergency is declared it would be illegal for me (a CWP holder) to carry concealed in a public place.

I will offer the example that came to mind for the sake of clarity. A hurricane is bearing down on the area so the Governor declares a state of emergency. Would I then not be allowed to carry my concealed weapon to the gas station, grocery store, and hardware store while preparing for the storm?

The section had me baffled, and I would appreciate any information you might be able to offer.

Thank you for your time.

Greg McDonald

Am I missing something, or does it seem like I'm just being told to buy the new copy of his book?

I'm a little bit confused by the response considering his usual approach to updates. He posts free updates for pertinent information in older editions on his website.

Regardless, I'm now concerned and looking for clarification on my original issue. Is anyone familiar with the rules surrounding a declared state of emergency restricting licensed and otherwise legal carry in Florida?

 

[Bfunk]

while I cant give any clarification on the state of emergency question. I think it was a pretty BS answer he gave you. "buy the new addition of my book for $30 and you'll get the answer".

 

[PM]

I'd say you got two choices; 1) pay $29.95 for a new book 2) find the book from a lender of some sort.

 

[gdm320]

Further reading of F.S. 870.044 revealed the following...

(3) The intentional possession in a public place of a firearm by any person, except a duly authorized law enforcement official or person in military service acting in the official performance of her or his duty.

While it doesn't specifically include licensed concealed carry (although I assume it is covered by the blanket term "any person")... I'm thinking this means I would, in fact, be prohibited from carrying anywhere off of private property during the state of emergency.

If this is the case, does anybody else find this particularly stupid? Considering the lawlessness that has ensued in the past in the aftermath of a major disaster, I can't say I'd be willing to disarm if I had to leave my property for additional supplies (as an example).

 

[schwaa]

Now if your vehicle is considered an extension of your home, Does it qualify as a "public place"?

Sorry for not making things more clear. Thanks for posting this though, I gotta get that book. Used of course, just because that guy told you to buy a new copy.

 

[chrise2004]

Dear gdm320,

Right now I'm charging $4.99 per post pertaining to this info. Please PM me for payment options
-Chris


-------
Seriously this guy....c'mon dude just help a guy out who actually bought your book. I'd say look it up online,try to find it at a library or just email/call your Chief of Police and see what they say.

 

[tns0038]

I don’t know what he is talking about
From Florida’s own website

Possession Restrictions - Weapons - Division of Licensing, FDACS

Possession Restrictions
The following is a list of places where you are restricted from carrying a weapon or firearm even if you have a license. Please note that this is a simplified list. The places marked by an asterisk (*) may have exceptions or additional restrictions. See Section 790.06 (12), Florida Statutes for a complete listing.
• any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
• any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station
• any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse
• any courtroom*
• any polling place
• any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district
• any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof
• any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms
• any school administration building
• any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption*
• any elementary or secondary school facility
• any area technical center
• any college or university facility*
• inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*
• any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law

It does not mention time of emergency as an exception

But, then again I’m not an attorney.

It does mention police are NOT authorized to take legally owned firearms, so I would expect that whatever you’re reading does exempt CCL holders, just like it does LEO’s.

I can assure you that during the time before a hurricane I always my Glock 24/7, and after the storm, I open carry it around the house and yard.

 

[rmodel65]

the emergency legislation is in response to Katrina every state in the south* passed laws so the people shouldnt be disarmed


*all except for GA

as for the not being able to carry who knows

 

[beerman]

After that B.S. reply I would email the author back and tell him you certainly will not buy another of his books and will advise others not to as well. Since he could not even answer a question from you when you obviously read his book, you should not ever support him again.

 

[miklcolt45]

1. The book has recently been updated due to changes in the law and case law and experience that sheds light on some of the issues covered.

2. The issue is whether or not one can carry by law IF a state of emergency is declared. No, the LE/Nat'l Guard cannot confiscate your weapon if you are not doing anything illegal. But, it MAY be illegal if the Gov. declares it so. Who knows?

3. I don't have the book with me at work, so can't check what he said.

4. Finally, yes, it would be nice for Gutmacher to answer the question that was asked.

ETA: He did partially answer the question. "It depends on the wording of the declaration."

 

[nutz4utwo]

I would be ticked off if i received that email in response. Especially in light of the free updates and the age of the sixth edition. I certainly wouldn't buy the updated book. Yes, I know writing is work and authors have to make money, but the explanation in the 6th edition is deficient. You should not have to pay for the author correcting their own deficiency.

I would research for myself and check it out from the library. Then sell my 6th edition used on Amazon.

...just me

by the way, there is also a Federal regulation that deals with this and might make a Florida confiscation problematic: 42 USC Sec. 5207: The Vitter Amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Recovery_Personal_Protection_Act_of_2006

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/...rearms during an emergency or major disaster)

 

[davidw]

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 870
AFFRAYS; RIOTS; ROUTS; UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLIES

View Entire Chapter

870.044 Automatic emergency measures.--Whenever the public official declares that a state of emergency exists, pursuant to s. 870.043, the following acts shall be prohibited during the period of said emergency throughout the jurisdiction:

(1) The sale of, or offer to sell, with or without consideration, any ammunition or gun or other firearm of any size or description.

(2) The intentional display, after the emergency is declared, by or in any store or shop of any ammunition or gun or other firearm of any size or description.

(3) The intentional possession in a public place of a firearm by any person, except a duly authorized law enforcement official or person in military service acting in the official performance of her or his duty.

Nothing contained in this chapter shall be construed to authorize the seizure, taking, or confiscation of firearms that are lawfully possessed, unless a person is engaged in a criminal act.

 

[mastercapt]

Emergency

I am an Amateur Radio "ham" who volunteers for emergency communications. I asked our county emergency coordinator to ask the LEOs about this, because if I was to be voluntarily deployed to another area during an emergency, you bet your bippy that I would be carrying, but well concealed.
They sadi: "if you are there in an official capacity, and have a Florida CWP, your are OK, unless if you are in a shelter which is also a school, a police, or fire station" They also said don't open carry.
Years ago I was deployed to a small town during hurricane Agnes, in the southern tier of NY state. I was carrying, had a NY state full carry permit, and of course, had it well concealed. I was told beforehand to inform the local LEO, which I did. No problem, he said. Didn't even ask for the permit.
I don't mind volunteering for these things, but I also want to be able to defend myself. If that goes away, they can find another volunteer to go there, pro bono.

 

[schwaa]

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 870
AFFRAYS; RIOTS; ROUTS; UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLIES

View Entire Chapter

870.044 Automatic emergency measures.--Whenever the public official declares that a state of emergency exists, pursuant to s. 870.043, the following acts shall be prohibited during the period of said emergency throughout the jurisdiction:

(1) The sale of, or offer to sell, with or without consideration, any ammunition or gun or other firearm of any size or description.

(2) The intentional display, after the emergency is declared, by or in any store or shop of any ammunition or gun or other firearm of any size or description.

(3) The intentional possession in a public place of a firearm by any person, except a duly authorized law enforcement official or person in military service acting in the official performance of her or his duty.

Nothing contained in this chapter shall be construed to authorize the seizure, taking, or confiscation of firearms that are lawfully possessed, unless a person is engaged in a criminal act.

Is it "unlawful" to posses a firearm in a public place during a state of emergency or is it "prohibited".

So your weapon can not be taken away from you. That is of course assuming youre not in a public place, which would make you engaged in a criminal act?:buttkick:

 

[OldVet]

Also in Fl. anyone who legally owns a gun can carry it in a closed container in his car, which includes a closed glovebox or closed console compartment. The vehicle is considered part of your "castle."

 

[davidw]

Is it "unlawful" to posses a firearm in a public place during a state of emergency or is it "prohibited".

It is unlawful because it is prohibited.

unlawful:
adj. referring to any action which is in violation of a statute, federal or state constitution, or established legal precedents,
not authorized or justified by law

Prohibited: to forbid (an action, activity, etc.) by authority or law

 

[davidw]

I am an Amateur Radio "ham" who volunteers for emergency communications. I asked our county emergency coordinator to ask the LEOs about this,

There is nothing to ask. An LEO can't give you permission to break the law (technically)

3) The intentional possession in a public place of a firearm by any person, except a duly authorized law enforcement official or person in military service acting in the official performance of her or his duty.

 

[mkh]

I am an Amateur Radio "ham" who volunteers for emergency communications. I asked our county emergency coordinator to ask the LEOs about this, because if I was to be voluntarily deployed to another area during an emergency, you but your bippy that I would be carrying, but well concealed.
They sadi: "if you are there in an official capacity, and have a Florida CWP, your are OK, unless if you are in a shelter which is also a school, a police, or fire station" They also said don't open carry.
Years ago I was deployed to a small town during hurricane Agnes, in the southern tier of NY state. I was carrying, had a NY state full carry permit, and of course, had it well concealed. I was told beforehand to inform the local LEO, which I did. No problem, he said. Didn't even ask for the permit.
I don't mind volunteering for these things, but I also want to be able to defend myself. If that goes away, they can find another volunteer to go there, pro bono.

As an ARES member (St. Johns cty) most of the places we setup during an emergency are in schools so that would prohibit us carrying.

I wonder how the county EOC would be considered. Though it is not a police station the county commissioners and such will be gathered there so it may be prohibited also.

 

[mkh]

I am an Amateur Radio "ham" who volunteers for emergency communications. I asked our county emergency coordinator to ask the LEOs about this, because if I was to be voluntarily deployed to another area during an emergency, you bet your bippy that I would be carrying, but well concealed.
They sadi: "if you are there in an official capacity, and have a Florida CWP, your are OK, unless if you are in a shelter which is also a school, a police, or fire station" They also said don't open carry.
Years ago I was deployed to a small town during hurricane Agnes, in the southern tier of NY state. I was carrying, had a NY state full carry permit, and of course, had it well concealed. I was told beforehand to inform the local LEO, which I did. No problem, he said. Didn't even ask for the permit.
I don't mind volunteering for these things, but I also want to be able to defend myself. If that goes away, they can find another volunteer to go there, pro bono.

I found this:

LAWFUL USES.--The provisions of ss. 790.053 [Open Carry] and 790.06 [License to carry concealed] do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes:

(a) Members of the Militia, National Guard, Florida State Defense Force, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, organized reserves, and other armed forces of the state and of the United States, when on duty, when training or preparing themselves for military duty, or while subject to recall or mobilization;

(b) Citizens of this state subject to duty in the Armed Forces under s. 2, Art. X of the State Constitution, under chapters 250 and 251, and under federal laws, when on duty or when training or preparing themselves for military duty;

(c) Persons carrying out or training for emergency management duties under chapter 252;

 

[gdm320]

The core question here is whether or not a CWP holder in the State of Florida is prohibited from carrying while a declaration of a state of emergency is in force.

Ultimately I'd like to find the answer to that question while avoiding paying $30 for another copy of his book.

Beyond that is the question of how I was treated when I asked the question. "Buy a new copy" isn't an acceptable answer to me, and it seems that many of you agree with that sentiment.

I was going to buy a few copies for family members who are new to carry... now I think I'll just share my copy.