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Discussion Starter #1
I know we have touched somewhat on this before but Story from yesterday ..



AS i was working a customers house found out he works loss prevention for the company i work for he works in the stores im a on site repair tech so we get B.sing and i ask him are you allowed to carry on the job ... Says no and takes out his glock clears it so i can check it out ...


Then i watch him rack the slide again to make sure its clear and pull the trigger then slap the mag home im thinking WTF so i ask and he proceeds to tell me he loves the gun but doesnt feel safe 1 in the chamber ..

So we talked some more about how do you think your gonna have time to rack it etc etc ...I think it was a no win deal ..It did shock him when he ask what i carried and i said mostly G17 and 1911 cocked locked and ready to rock ...


Next question he asks is you carry one in the chamber ... welll duh

with hammer cocked ... umm duh i said that

and safty on ... well duh

I dont see how it coul be safe blah blah blah

To which i told him gun is perfectly safe and no pint carrying it anyother way only way i plan to use it as a club is when its out of bullets...



Now the big question i have here for the Forum ....



Should people like this even be carrying???


I mean if your trying to rack it and the BG get shot off first look hes got a free new gun you got dead my opinion is if you dont have the mind to where you think you could use it dont carry it your more dangeorus than the gun will ever be ...


Am i wrong ?
 

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Opinions do vary on this - some folks think the ''Israeli way'' too.

My thinking is - 1911 - even tho it is not my own fave platform - yep condition #1 - and it is the grip safety that really helps on that for folks who worry.

With my BHP I was less happy - just the one safety so - for me not as comfortable condition #1.

In the end, because I was later to the 1911 platform than any other - my compromize is condition #1 but D/A - S/A . With the SIG in particular - I now hardly notice that D/A first shot - just get pumpin them out.

So yeah for me - the means to get one off pronto makes it paramount to have chamber loaded - just might be a fatal delay if otherwise. Another reason why revo's are good - first shot is there and ready regardless.
 

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Here's what we tell them in class.

Over 90% of self defense situations begin at 21 feet OR LESS.

BG can cross the 21 feet in about 1.75 seconds. We demonstrate one instructor armed with a red knife attacking another with a red gun.

Someone who practices with their carry system can expect to draw in about 1.5 seconds if they know the BG is coming.

An individual who does not practice will take considerably longer.

Adding a step to your draw may or may not take the additional .25 second.

Are you willing to take the chance that you will be able to draw, rack the slide and get off the shot in under 1.75 seconds.

The percentages work against most people in my opinion. I'm sure there are people on this board and others who can draw, rack and fire as quickly as I can draw and fire. However, I teach very few people who will practice enough or shoot enough to be that fast.

Also if you need to fire from the hip area, which we don't teach in class, how are you going to work that out? For my partner to get me when I attack he has to simulate firing from the hip. A full presentation results in him being disarmed and dead. In all fairness he doesn't get even the 1.5 seconds to draw and fire.

We also let them know that modern quality firearms have built in safety mechanisms to prevent unintentional discharges. These firearms are perfectly safe to carry with a round in the chamber so long as you follow the safety rules.

We tell them that all of our instructors and everyone we know personally carries their firearm with a round in the chamber ready action cocked. Then we let them know that it is their decision to carry in this manner. That if they aren't comfortable carrying this way, they should consider other self defense options, because even if they carry they will likley have to go to another option due to not having a firearm ready to go.

We also tell them that before they carry in public they should carry around their home and property for awhile to get comfortable with their setup and do lots of different activities to ensure that their system works and they are comfortable with it. This is also another way to get comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber and action cocked.

Do I think people who don't carry with a round in the chamber ready to fire should not carry. No, that is their decision. I want to equip them with the information to make that decision and hopefully be able to effectively defend themselves when the tme arrives. What they do with that information is up to them.

-Scott-
 

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Israeli Carry ~ INTERESTING!

The reason for Israeli Carry is because in Israel ~ "Street Crime" is not a problem.
Terrorism is the problem.
I don't know how it is in Israel Today but, it used to be that any Israeli Citizen could go to the police station and request a firearm for the day.
Since all of the firearms that were "loaned out" were of different "makes and models" the standard (less confusing) way for the average citizen to carry them all was magazine fully loaded...with the chamber empty and whatever "safety controls" in the OFF position.
That way ANY make of firearm could be "made ready to fire" just by racking the slide & pulling the trigger.
The citizen requesting a firearm might get a DIFFERENT gun every day.
So by using Israeli Carry Method...that "ordinary person" could safely carry any defensive firearm without learning the specific controls for every type of firearm.
That was the original reason for Israeli Carry.
So...now you all know. :biggrin:
 

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Israeli Methods

QKShooter said:
The citizen requesting a firearm might get a DIFFERENT gun every day.
So by using Israeli Carry Method...that "ordinary person" could safely carry any defensive firearm without learning the specific controls for every type of firearm. That was the original reason for Israeli Carry.
So...now you all know. :biggrin:
I'm pretty sure that every Israeli citizen is required to undergo military training and this would include not only safe use of a firearm, but tactical employment as well. I know that Israel has very little street crime, bombings are more the norm.

IIRC, back in 1988 (this somehow made the Miami Herald) there was a robbery of a small outdoor cafe in TelAviv. Two bad guys ran into the middle of the tables outside, brandishing handguns and screaming about how everybody should give up their money, watches, etc. Five Israelis stood, smoothly drew and riddled the crooks. Something like 30 rds were found between the two bodies. Nobody else was injured. The diners merely reholstered and resumed eating while waiting for somebody to arrive to clean up the mess. Somehow, I don't think these folks "racked" any slides, first.
 

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I've got a few thoughts on this...and Scott made some good points...

Personally, I think that most people that dont feel comfortable carrying a round in the chamber need more training.

Until that happens, they might be better off not carrying one on the chamber.If they dont instinctivley point the gun away from anything they dont want to shoot, if they cant keep their finger off of the trigger, if they are sloppy with their gun handling skills, the public might be better off with them having a gun with an unloaded chamber.

Generally, but not always, in a defensive sitation they will usually have enough time to rack one in the chamber if they are aware of their surroundings.

I do know of several people that are very competent with guns that choose not to have one in the chamber for various reasons.

The Israeli method can be quick if practiced to the point that one naturally draws and racks instinctively, without thought. For that to occur, one must practice it thousands of times. How many people are gonna do that ? I dare say not many. The major disavantage of that method is that it requires two hands to do so.

Is someone wants tot hurt you and gets in your face, you wont want to use both hands on a gun and it can be very awkward.



Having trained as a Deputy in scenarios using Simunitions I know how quickly and amazingly fast someone can produce a gun to shoot you with. I can honestly say that If I taken that 2 seconds to rack, I would have had several flouresent orange paintballs appear all over me.
Why put yourself at a disadvantage ?

A badguy that could care less if he kills you are not is gonna have his chamber loaded...
 

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HotGuns said:
Generally, but not always, in a defensive sitation they will usually have enough time to rack one in the chamber if they are aware of their surroundings.
HotGuns, I can't even think of the number of times I have seen extremely experienced shooters at IDPA matches fail to get off a first shot in a match because they were so focused on the scenario that they failed to "wipe the safety" off a 1911. So here they are furiously squeezing a locked trigger and cursing. That's a match not a life and death struggle and it's with a loaded chamber to begin with.

What are the chances that an unloaded chamber, suddenly loaded, under that kind of tension is going to also have a finger off the trigger until the muzzle is aligned with the target? Think, too, of the trigger pull weight on a 1911 as well as the takeup until the trigger breaks the shot. Something like this can only really work consistently on a firearm with an internal striker like a Glock or perhaps an H&K P7.
 

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HotGuns, I can't even think of the number of times I have seen extremely experienced shooters at IDPA matches fail to get off a first shot in a match because they were so focused on the scenario that they failed to "wipe the safety" off a 1911. So here they are furiously squeezing a locked trigger and cursing. That's a match not a life and death struggle and it's with a loaded chamber to begin with.
yep...I've seen the same thing. I've done it myself on timed shoots on steel plates in competition. I've won matches that way and lost a few due to a fumbled draw...where something as simple as that cost a few tenths of a second and the match was lost right there.

I dont expect anyone to be able to even think of drawing, racking and shooting if their life is in danger and things happen in the space of a heartbeat. In most cases though, for a CCW holder, they are going to have several seconds to think about what they have to do. Usually, they'll have a few seconds of warning where they can decide to get out of Dodge,draw if they must, fire if they must.


People that think that they can do that at will when the SHTF are only kidding themselves if they ever get into a situation where they have to.
I've been in various training scenarios where things have happended so fast that you just acted without consiously thinking.I barely had time to draw and fire,and wondering if the gun was chambered or not or even fumbling the draw from my holster would have been the difference between living and dieing.

Im looking at it mostly from an officer standpoint though. Looking at the several justifiable shoots that we've had here in the county over the last few years, in every case the shooter had several seconds, in some cases several minutes to decide what to do. I think that in those cases anyone that carried with an unloaded chamber would have had time to rack the slide back and load it.

Would I reccomend it ? Absolutley not. Thats just one more thing that you have to think about when your mind is trying to figure out the fight or flight mode and in my way of thinking its just one more thing that can go wrong. What if you short stroke it ?
What if your hands are slippery with sweat ? Are you in an ideal postition to rack it or are you gonna be seated at a table where you smack the edge of the table and nearly knock it out of your hand ? Im a firm beleiver in Murphys Law...I've seen it too many times.Whatever can go wrong WILL go wrong when at the worst possible time.

Like I said before...the bad guy is gonna have his gun chambered.
Why give him ANY advantage ?
 

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If you are uncomfortable carrying a pistol with a round chambered because you think it may fire unintentionally, try this:

DISCLAIMER: The following drill should only be done with an UNLOADED handgun
DISCLAIMER #2: I am not a firearms instructor, expert, or anything. I am not trained to give this kind of advice. In fact, it probably violates several rules, somewhere. :stooges:
This is for a 1911 type pistol.
- Put a thick rubber band around the grip safety of your unloaded gun.
- Cock the unloaded gun, and leave the thumb safety OFF.
- Put the unloaded gun in your holster and go about your normal business.
- Check the unloaded gun from time to time. On a properly maintained handgun, even with both safeties by-passed, it will not have fired.

I did this to convince my wife that it was safe. And I'm talkin about rolling around on the floor wrestling with the dogs, bumping my elbow into the butt of the gun repeatedly and all.

She seemed to think that carrying cocked and locked was akin to carrying an armed mousetrap in your pocket. Any little movement may set it off! :eek:
YMMV. Good luck. :smile:
 

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I don't carry 1911 type automatics anymore, and I used to live and sleep with a Tussey Custom Colt Officers ACP.

After reading several treatises from Massad Ayoob, I decided that I wanted to live both on the street and anywhere else danger lurked. That usually meant the courtroom.

You'll notice that the new cottage industry is now sueing in civil court after the criminal case is resolved. If I were king, there would be no civil trial after a criminal trial. I belive that the phrase double jeopardy should be applied as The Framers intended. Woefully, it is not.

I have known police involved shootings where the LEO's were investigated more than the criminal shooter. In 1979, almost three years after the shooting, I was standing in the showroom at Castle Rock Shooter Supply when one of the policemen got his SW 39 back. As he took the box, you could hear the pieces rattle together. Sure enough, the entire firearm had been detail stripped as hungry lawyers for the dead felon used every trick in the book to hang the LEO's; including attempts to find illegal modifications to all of the firearms involved in the shooting.

I believe a Tussey modified 1911 is about the finest defensive weapon made, and scores of cops will verify that. In fact, my triggers have been adjusted to about six pounds, instead of the stock four pounds, and it is harder to push my safety switches off of 'safe.' (No lawyer is going to hang me with 'hair trigger' arguments or the safety was 'bumped off' and the suspect was accidentally shot.)

However, at my age, I'm beginning to see the wisdom of a box-stock vanilla firearm, and my Glock certainly is that.

I'm not in defensive arts for my ego, but for my health. And an ugly stock gun kills just as efficiently as a gilded one.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
So far everything is great ya posted your thoughts but i dont want to concentrait on the 1911 things just the empty chamber of any auto
 

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Yes!

The Tourist said:
I don't carry 1911 type automatics anymore, and I used to live and sleep with a Tussey Custom Colt Officers ACP.

After reading several treatises from Massad Ayoob, I decided that I wanted to live both on the street and anywhere else danger lurked. That usually meant the courtroom.

You'll notice that the new cottage industry is now sueing in civil court after the criminal case is resolved. If I were king, there would be no civil trial after a criminal trial. I belive that the phrase double jeopardy should be applied as The Framers intended. Woefully, it is not.

I have known police involved shootings where the LEO's were investigated more than the criminal shooter. In 1979, almost three years after the shooting, I was standing in the showroom at Castle Rock Shooter Supply when one of the policemen got his SW 39 back. As he took the box, you could hear the pieces rattle together. Sure enough, the entire firearm had been detail stripped as hungry lawyers for the dead felon used every trick in the book to hang the LEO's; including attempts to find illegal modifications to all of the firearms involved in the shooting.

I believe a Tussey modified 1911 is about the finest defensive weapon made, and scores of cops will verify that. In fact, my triggers have been adjusted to about six pounds, instead of the stock four pounds, and it is harder to push my safety switches off of 'safe.' (No lawyer is going to hang me with 'hair trigger' arguments or the safety was 'bumped off' and the suspect was accidentally shot.)

However, at my age, I'm beginning to see the wisdom of a box-stock vanilla firearm, and my Glock certainly is that.

I'm not in defensive arts for my ego, but for my health. And an ugly stock gun kills just as efficiently as a gilded one.
EXACTLY!!! I either carry a Glock M27 or a Sig Sauer P245 for exactly the same reason. I like that the Sig has no external safety to worry about wiping and a prosecutor proof (I hope) trigger pull....at least on the first DA shot. If it's a good shoot scenario, that's the most important round. Thankfully, here in Florida, our wonderful Governor just signed into law an expansion of the Castle Doctrine. It's made national news and the liberals are whining the same old rant about the Wild West and vigilantism...yada yada yada....but what is also important is the other provisions prevent any LAWSUIT from being brought by the wounded perp or his (hopefully you're accurate) estate. It also prevents an antigun DA from bringing criminal charges just to harrass folks exercising their lawful rights. As our original law was the model for other CCW laws nationwide, So too I hope this one kicks into play as well.
 

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empty chamber carry should be classified as attempted suicide

Bud White said:
So far everything is great ya posted your thoughts but i dont want to concentrait on the 1911 things just the empty chamber of any auto
Well, Bud, I think you almost have to break it down between the 1911 or 1911 designs like the Hi-Power and everything else, being pretty much the DA or DAO style semiautos. I think empty chamber carry for self defense is or should be classified as "attempted suicide."

SINGLE EXCEPTION: In the case of a DA revolver with six or more chambers in the cylinder a paranoid type like the guy who would feel "unsafe" with an auto in condition one would likely also feel the same way about a revolver fully loaded and it would make a teeeeeny bit more sense to keep the chamber under the hammer (forgetting or ignoring the transfer bar on a modern gun as being too neat) unloaded so that the next round could be lit off by a simple trigger pull and nothing else.
 

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I think it stems from the fact that people don't know how firearms operate. My Father taught me about safety, sharpening, changing a tire, use of common hand tools, etc., because that was proper information for a child of proper age.

Of course you lowered the hammer of SAA on an empty chamber--you always had to do that. Your older relatives informed you of the dangers, not some law firm out to bankrupt your inlaws. There was nothing mechanically unsound about the firearm or the practice. Yet Ruger offered 'upgrade kits' to protect idiots on a condition successfully curtailed by knowledge and practice.

So it is with 'condition one.' I learned about 1911's before I owned one. I learned how to disassemble one, on how to replace weaker springs that might fail, how to clean magazines and how to properly unload this type of firearm.

And when I teach, I make sure cleaning and safety are as much a part of firing as lessons on trigger control.
 

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Training.

I agree with Scott's post earlier.

Many other good points brought as well.

I believe when you need a firearm - you need it NOW. I keep / CCW all firearms fully loaded and mag topped off. I am comfortable with C&L 1911 or BHP , I was raised this way.

I prefer a Gov't Model of 45,or K frame revolver. I prefer wood and blue, stocks that fit me, and smooth triggers - on a 1911 4-6 # is fine . I have others I CCW, they too are Vanilla, only the Stocks may be different - again to fit my hands.

Then again I am one that keeps his bone stock 870 with a slug chambered, and mag topped off with slugs as well. "Snick & Shoot". If I need it- I'll need it. Slugs work from "contact" to out "yonder a bit" distance. :wink:
 

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HotGuns said:
Personally, I think that most people that dont feel comfortable carrying a round in the chamber need more training.

Until that happens, they might be better off not carrying one on the chamber.If they dont instinctivley point the gun away from anything they dont want to shoot, if they cant keep their finger off of the trigger, if they are sloppy with their gun handling skills, the public might be better off with them having a gun with an unloaded chamber.
Until they clean up their gun handling skills as mentioned, they have no business carrying a pistol in public...period!
 

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Not To Harp On This Again

But I still don't understand how some people think that a fully loaded D.A. GLOCK with one in the chamber is SOMEHOW different or more UNSAFE than an ordinary loaded revolver. :confused:
I never understood that.
 

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QKShooter said:
But I still don't understand how some people think that a fully loaded D.A. GLOCK with one in the chamber is SOMEHOW different or more UNSAFE than an ordinary loaded revolver. :confused:
I never understood that.
Me either, QK, but they are definitely out there....
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I dont get it either and thats why i posted ya never hear people call for a safety on a wheelie or if you have heard it i havent
 

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I'll chirp in here.

The only designs that I don't like, that I personally wouldn't want to carry, are the ones with an exposed hammer which is cocked and held in place by a manual safety.

The 1911 and several of the CZ designs come to mind.

Okay now let me explain why. I know in my mind that I'm probably just freaking out over nothing, but here's why it bothers me:

If you were to actually be moving around, shifting positions, and squirming about a lot, isn't there at least a tiny chance you could accidentally slip the safety off?

It happens to my Ruger all the time just in casual range carry. I'll put it in its Fobus holster for a few minutes, unloaded of course, to free up my hands so I can pick up brass or whatever, and when I draw it, it drags on the tail of my shirt or what have you and the safety slips off.

However it's no big deal as the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, my finger is off the trigger, and there is nothing in the chamber. The other thing is I know that even if the safety is off, the hammer is not under any kind of tension to spring forward and strike. It is "at ease".

Now what are the odds of something like that happening with a real holster and a decent gun? Probably incredibly poor. Even then the 1911 lovers will be quick to point out the grip safety, but not all such pistols will have a grip safety.

Rationally, I know that a good holster and practicing the presentation would demonstrate it's not a concern to get worked up about. Yet at the same time, I also know there's a world of pistols out there that do not require a cocked hammer to rest on a loaded chamber.

And you know what? That just makes me feel better. Isn't that a stupid reason? But it does. It just makes me feel better knowing I don't have to worry about that incredibly slim one in a billion possibility.

I figure if some poor sod can get blown up pouring gas into a gas can in the back of their struck because static electricity sparked up, I'd be the fool who could cause an AD to happen while I was carrying such a pistol.

Now would I try such a pistol to shoot steel plates or even protect my home? Yeah I could see that. But I don't want to stuff such a thing in an IWB holster and go crawling about all day wondering if the safety is still engaged.

There's a world of options out there and if something makes you nervous, even if it's not for a good reason, then just avoid it. You don't owe anyone an explanation. Your personal carry firearm should be something you have confidence in.

Keep cranking away and maybe one day you'll change your mind, but until then there's no reason to get yourself all worked up.
 
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