Was short and sweet, but I was totally unprepared for the snap decision I'd have to make. I was approached by a guy I knew (and knew he didn't like me for something that happend years ago) I thought things had cooled down, but when took a swing at me, I realized that they haddn't (in his mind at least). Here's how it went down... I saw this guy (haddn't seen him in 8 or so years) outside a Pep Boys. He said "Hey Man" and started to walk toward me. Recognizing him, I said "dude, long time no see" and no ssoner did he get about 6 feet from me, he lunged out and took a big swing. I leaned back, he missed and re-cocked his right arm for another swing as he cursed at me. I backed up a bit and he lunged again and took a swing. This time I leaned back again as to avoid his punch and as the right side of his body turned with the momentum from the follow through, I jumped at him and delivered a devistating knee to his ribs. I have no fight training at all, but I watch a lot of UFC! Anyway, he went down immediately for about 30 seconds rolling in pain. I went back into the store and called the police. Now that this is all over I start thinking about how very bad this could have gone had he beaten me up or my gun became exposed. What do you do in a situation where your own gun could be taken or come out during a fight that doesn't call for deadly force at the time it begins? I mean, you can't just pull out your gun to avoid a fist fight, right? Comments...
PAExplorer
I personally don't have all the details worked out, regarding what I would do. Congratulations on laying this guy out after he had the chance to sucker punch you and you got away from it!
Was there any surveillance video of the front of the store, that you can have the police get hold of, to prove that you were swung on unprovoked? I would try to get that pronto, if it exists.
There is a huge unknown area there, with regard to a guy who approaches with "only" fists, because of the disparity of force between his unarmedness and your gun. If you were to drop back, draw, and possibly fire, almost everyone would look at you like you were the bad guy, who overreacted, and who should've just allowed himself to take a few lumps or something. Never mind the fact that if you did so, your gun could tumble out or get found in a struggle and used against you by this nutjob. So it's a difficult situation to be in.
Let's not forget that PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM A SINGLE PUNCH to the head, and it's happened a number of times that I can recall just in my area alone. (One guy fell backward from the punch, cracked his head on the ground, went into a coma and then died.) So the argument can be made that you are justified in responding to bare-handed violence using your gun because bare-handed violence can indeed be deadly. Aren't hands and feet the "weapons" used in a huge proportion of homicides annually? One is not "safe" just because he's "only" using his fists. My feeling is that if someone brings you violence unprovoked, you should be justified in treating it as violence that could be intended to end your life, because you will have no way of knowing. But unfortunately, the law seems pretty backward in this regard.
Was there any surveillance video of the front of the store, that you can have the police get hold of, to prove that you were swung on unprovoked? I would try to get that pronto, if it exists.
There is a huge unknown area there, with regard to a guy who approaches with "only" fists, because of the disparity of force between his unarmedness and your gun. If you were to drop back, draw, and possibly fire, almost everyone would look at you like you were the bad guy, who overreacted, and who should've just allowed himself to take a few lumps or something. Never mind the fact that if you did so, your gun could tumble out or get found in a struggle and used against you by this nutjob. So it's a difficult situation to be in.
Let's not forget that PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM A SINGLE PUNCH to the head, and it's happened a number of times that I can recall just in my area alone. (One guy fell backward from the punch, cracked his head on the ground, went into a coma and then died.) So the argument can be made that you are justified in responding to bare-handed violence using your gun because bare-handed violence can indeed be deadly. Aren't hands and feet the "weapons" used in a huge proportion of homicides annually? One is not "safe" just because he's "only" using his fists. My feeling is that if someone brings you violence unprovoked, you should be justified in treating it as violence that could be intended to end your life, because you will have no way of knowing. But unfortunately, the law seems pretty backward in this regard.
Are you talking about the guy that punched the guy in the head at the movie theater? And killed him?
But I guess my question is. If someone puts up their dukes and you can't get away, do you just partake in a good old fashion fist fight? And if so, how do you protect your weapon? I carry a hamered revo... it's possible that a rumble could lead to the hamer being hit hard enough for a discharge. I can't see how a fist fight challange would be grounds for a draw. For example, what do you do if the "macho man" takes off his shirt and challenges you. You can see that they don't have a weapon out and you can't turn and run. What then?
Um, if you're carrying a revolver "hammer down" on a live round and it does NOT have a transfer bar type safety, then you need to learn a little more about using a carrying your weapon. :nono:
And, "hammer" has two M's...
I would do what I would normally do in this situation. walk away but preferably run as fast as I can away from this area. I will avoid any physical altercation and swallow my pride then leave. I will try any means to deescalate the situation. I don't want to be put in a situation where my assailant can disarm me and use the weapon against me. however, if violence is unavoidable, then it is on. hand to hand. if i fear for my life, the pistol gets drawn and commands to cease and leave start. if he is unarmed, he gets pepper sprayed first. a call to the police is also merited.
it sounds that you had no choice and essentially got ambushed. good knee strike, you have been watching to much vanderlei silva, ha? good on ya, mate.
it sounds that you had no choice and essentially got ambushed. good knee strike, you have been watching to much vanderlei silva, ha? good on ya, mate.
There are those who can go hand to hand, . . . some have to go cane to cane or walker to walker.
Raider has the right idea if a guy has the youth, . . . stamina, . . . speed to do all that. But considering my health and all, . . . I'll probably go straight from "fear for my life" to un-holstering, acquiring sight picture, flicking off safety, engaging trigger, . . . and if the dude is fast enough to start running before my finger can put 4.6 #'s of pressure on a 4.5 trigger, . . . he may live to curse me tomorrow. Otherwise, . . . he may not.
No, . . . I'm not looking for a fight, . . . and if shuffle walking away from one will avoid it, . . . I'll do that. I'll apologize for a slight the other guy perceives. But I ain't taking a beating just so some punk can rob me of my weapon and shoot me with it, . . .
Springmom on some of the other forums sums it up in her sig line: I will not be a victim.
May God bless,
Dwight
Raider has the right idea if a guy has the youth, . . . stamina, . . . speed to do all that. But considering my health and all, . . . I'll probably go straight from "fear for my life" to un-holstering, acquiring sight picture, flicking off safety, engaging trigger, . . . and if the dude is fast enough to start running before my finger can put 4.6 #'s of pressure on a 4.5 trigger, . . . he may live to curse me tomorrow. Otherwise, . . . he may not.
No, . . . I'm not looking for a fight, . . . and if shuffle walking away from one will avoid it, . . . I'll do that. I'll apologize for a slight the other guy perceives. But I ain't taking a beating just so some punk can rob me of my weapon and shoot me with it, . . .
Springmom on some of the other forums sums it up in her sig line: I will not be a victim.
May God bless,
Dwight
That would be my fear. During the fight the guy gets my gun. Once the fight starts and if he gets me on the ground and my shirt goes up, he see's me gun, then what? Scarry situation.
One punch can kill a man and has many times. I'm not a fighter. I'd run or do whatever I could to get away. If I'm forced to draw, atleast I did everything I could to avoid the situation.
One punch can kill a man and has many times. I'm not a fighter. I'd run or do whatever I could to get away. If I'm forced to draw, atleast I did everything I could to avoid the situation.
OC spray from me first...that's just for repeated threats (remember, I'm already apologizing, backing up, etc....)...if the threat continues moving forward, or I am touched? Well, let's just say, that I refuse to be a victim! This short, fat, bald, 60 year old will come to life, and quickly!
retsupt99 brings to mind a good point. He will get away with more than I will, and a small woman may get away with even more. A 6'4", 250lb, relatively healthy man in his late 30's will have a harder time convincing a DA ,and heaven forbid a jury, that he was in fear of his life.
Agreed Plan B.
Further in a CCW class I took years ago with instructors who were FBI and DC police they felt the same way as this subject came up in class.
One instructor went so far as to state a scenario nearly exactly the same as this occured to him while attending a concert in the venues parking lot. He said he took a few licks whilst attempting to contain the guy (and exchanged blows) ultimately going home with a blackened eye and his firearm having never left it's holster. The attacker in his scenario was much smaller than he was with youth to his side and alcohol courage working against him.
- Janq would not have drawn muchless fired
Further in a CCW class I took years ago with instructors who were FBI and DC police they felt the same way as this subject came up in class.
One instructor went so far as to state a scenario nearly exactly the same as this occured to him while attending a concert in the venues parking lot. He said he took a few licks whilst attempting to contain the guy (and exchanged blows) ultimately going home with a blackened eye and his firearm having never left it's holster. The attacker in his scenario was much smaller than he was with youth to his side and alcohol courage working against him.
- Janq would not have drawn muchless fired
Plan B said:
gotta tell you that just a guy wanting to fight is NOT going to make me want to escalate to a gunfight. There is no immediate GRAVE threat. Some may disagree, but the degree of danger has to come into play here - some guy wanting to throw knuckles does not do it.
Well, yah, maybe for you, but I am over 60, have diabetes, and the heart and nerve and eye damage associated with said, broken back from years ago and fused 5 degrees off plumb, and I am NOT, repeat, NOT getting into a fist fight with anyone. What then??? just asking.
gotta tell you that just a guy wanting to fight is NOT going to make me want to escalate to a gunfight. There is no immediate GRAVE threat. Some may disagree, but the degree of danger has to come into play here - some guy wanting to throw knuckles does not do it.
Well, yah, maybe for you, but I am over 60, have diabetes, and the heart and nerve and eye damage associated with said, broken back from years ago and fused 5 degrees off plumb, and I am NOT, repeat, NOT getting into a fist fight with anyone. What then??? just asking.
bob21bobby - you have a point. Well taken. I'm not sure what to say to that -just being honest.
cw
I'm a senior who's worn down by about seven years of fighting two cancers. And, I'm overweight with peripheral neuropathy in the feet so I can't run away too well. But I'm pretty good with a pistol, and a year in Nam taught me that I'm not afraid to shoot back.
Add it all up and if somebody attacks me, even with his hands, I'm considering myself to be in danger of great bodily harm or death and I'm pullin' and shootin'.
Add it all up and if somebody attacks me, even with his hands, I'm considering myself to be in danger of great bodily harm or death and I'm pullin' and shootin'.
I agree with the "go back in the store"option in this case. This way you have witnesses who can call the cops and help subdue the attacker.
Now if the guy is approaching with a pipe/bat or anything other than his hands , he intends to do me grave injury and I will draw and fire, center of mass.
Easy to play all this out now under no pressure....you did good.:congrats:
Now if the guy is approaching with a pipe/bat or anything other than his hands , he intends to do me grave injury and I will draw and fire, center of mass.
Easy to play all this out now under no pressure....you did good.:congrats:
Probably would not hurt to take some empty hand tactics courses, either...in case you can not get away easily and still need to protect your gun.
Well i better think about this more but in ccw class i was told its NOT justified if someone's thowing blows (though i agree with the what if he gets my gun comment) but if hes throwing blows & your backed against a wall its JUSTIFIED because w/your head against a wall theres no where for your noodle to say like recoil. Again just what i was told, ill ask the instructers in our Tacticle Defense Training Class at the gun club though.
Either way very hard call & u did good, just glad thats how it turned out :congrats:
Either way very hard call & u did good, just glad thats how it turned out :congrats:
Good questions--kinda makes you rethink your carry rig? Personally, I would seek out some training for weapon retention. I've practiced with some friends/coworkers who are/were LEOs and discussed this very scenario. Two quick thoughts...if you feel your weapon has been exposed and you feel the other person going for your gun--make sure it's your hand on the gun...and fight to get away.
Secondly...any additional training you can get would be a good investment--do your research and find out who is providing the training, their experience, background, and any certification/accreditation (a la FLETC).
When I CC in the warmer months, I like my Blade-tech IWB (tight friction hold that must be pulled at the correct angle)....in the colder months (with warmer clothes and jackets) or when I OC, I like my Blackhawk SERPA Level II holster with passive and active retention.
Good questions, because it could happen to anyone....I look forward to see what other say...
I must use a cane to get along. I have the lower 6 inches of it filled with a piece of smaller diameter steel pipe, in case I need to hit someone. I also carry spray on my key chain. I would use the spray 1st, cane if needed, but would have no problem using my trigger finger if needed to protect myself. My signature below is what the law is here in Kansas.
People who are physically disabled or incapacitated or considered to be senior citizens are not expected by society to have to fight in an unarmed combat. There is an obvious disparity of force in those situations. People who have had broken backs, partial blindness, multiple knee surgeries, heart attacks, strokes and the like are most likely on solid ground when using deadly force against unarmed punks.
My goodness, if you walk with a cane and have a handicapped parking permit, you are not expected to be able to run away. That's just common sense, and that is exactly why there is a disparity of force excuse in the law.
For those of you who are middle aged or say twenty something, relatively physically fit, or at least no documented physical impairment, the law and society is going to look at you a little jaded for shooting an otherwise unarmed opponent. I'm not the one writing the laws or even agree with all of them. I'm not saying that if you do shoot an unarmed person that you may be able to get out of a criminal charge.
You just have to bear in mind what the courts look at and what they consider to be an unfair fight. If you feel you must shoot an unarmed person, then by all means shoot.... just don't try and come back later and say you didn't know what would happen... That won't fly!
Anyone that shoots anyone has to take responsibility for what they do and in most cases, the courts frown on those who shoot unarmed assailants.
Again, I'm not writing those laws.... that's just the society and circumstances in which we live.
Anytime you shoot someone for whatever reason, you just entered a legal minefield, plain and simple. Some people emerge unscathed and some don't.
There are a lot of people with what is considered to have been a "good shoot" that are in prison for it. There are no gurantees when it comes to pulling the trigger on someone.
Those of us who have secured a ccw license so we can carry a gun to defend ourselves with, better know that. Most of us accept the responsibility. But if you have any doubt in your mind that you can do everything right and still get hung out to dry then maybe ccw isn't for you.
Ayoob says, "The only true success is avoiding a situation, anything else is just damage control" There is a lot of truth in those words.
Those who are looking for some sort of "gurantee" that they won't get in trouble for doing what they do, are in the wrong club!
My goodness, if you walk with a cane and have a handicapped parking permit, you are not expected to be able to run away. That's just common sense, and that is exactly why there is a disparity of force excuse in the law.
For those of you who are middle aged or say twenty something, relatively physically fit, or at least no documented physical impairment, the law and society is going to look at you a little jaded for shooting an otherwise unarmed opponent. I'm not the one writing the laws or even agree with all of them. I'm not saying that if you do shoot an unarmed person that you may be able to get out of a criminal charge.
You just have to bear in mind what the courts look at and what they consider to be an unfair fight. If you feel you must shoot an unarmed person, then by all means shoot.... just don't try and come back later and say you didn't know what would happen... That won't fly!
Anyone that shoots anyone has to take responsibility for what they do and in most cases, the courts frown on those who shoot unarmed assailants.
Again, I'm not writing those laws.... that's just the society and circumstances in which we live.
Anytime you shoot someone for whatever reason, you just entered a legal minefield, plain and simple. Some people emerge unscathed and some don't.
There are a lot of people with what is considered to have been a "good shoot" that are in prison for it. There are no gurantees when it comes to pulling the trigger on someone.
Those of us who have secured a ccw license so we can carry a gun to defend ourselves with, better know that. Most of us accept the responsibility. But if you have any doubt in your mind that you can do everything right and still get hung out to dry then maybe ccw isn't for you.
Ayoob says, "The only true success is avoiding a situation, anything else is just damage control" There is a lot of truth in those words.
Those who are looking for some sort of "gurantee" that they won't get in trouble for doing what they do, are in the wrong club!
Well... I have to say that with all the confusion that goes on during one of these unprovoked attacks, it's hard to determine if you are being body punched or seriously stabbed. I guess the attacker made the first choice and needs to be aware that self defense by his victim is an option.If it all works out to be nothing more than a few punches,you need to follow through with prosecution and possibly a civil suit just to make sure he knows there are consequences. Chuck,
Ping!
All due respect, but I think it is hilarious that you insinuate that watching UFC on television in some way makes you a better fighter. That is like saying you can fly because you've watched birds do it, or that you're a car because you're standing in a garage. Mixed martial arts require dedicated practice and focus to gain any sort of proficiency, and I guess I bristle at the suggestion that you can gain anything like fighting skills by sitting on your butt watching TV. MMA features 'hand-to-hand', not 'remote control-to-hand'! Apologies in advance, but I gotta' call BS on this one!
It sounds like you're very lucky things turned out like they did. In the future, you may want to think about doing some REAL training (I feel that everyone has an obligation to learn as much as possible about unarmed combat, too). You'd never have to worry about going for your gun if you can end the thing without it. More importantly, you'd probably be able to prevent anything dire from happening at all.
I guess what I'm saying is that real training translates to calm confidence. The whole goal is to completely avoid becoming involved in such an encounter. Any good instructor is going to teach you how to avoid problems entirely without violence.
So, anyway, glad you're in one piece! l'm also glad you didn't kill the guy where he stood...it may have been a much worse outcome. Email me if you'd like any suggestions on where to look for a good MMA school. They're EVERYWHERE these days!
All due respect, but I think it is hilarious that you insinuate that watching UFC on television in some way makes you a better fighter. That is like saying you can fly because you've watched birds do it, or that you're a car because you're standing in a garage. Mixed martial arts require dedicated practice and focus to gain any sort of proficiency, and I guess I bristle at the suggestion that you can gain anything like fighting skills by sitting on your butt watching TV. MMA features 'hand-to-hand', not 'remote control-to-hand'! Apologies in advance, but I gotta' call BS on this one!
It sounds like you're very lucky things turned out like they did. In the future, you may want to think about doing some REAL training (I feel that everyone has an obligation to learn as much as possible about unarmed combat, too). You'd never have to worry about going for your gun if you can end the thing without it. More importantly, you'd probably be able to prevent anything dire from happening at all.
I guess what I'm saying is that real training translates to calm confidence. The whole goal is to completely avoid becoming involved in such an encounter. Any good instructor is going to teach you how to avoid problems entirely without violence.
So, anyway, glad you're in one piece! l'm also glad you didn't kill the guy where he stood...it may have been a much worse outcome. Email me if you'd like any suggestions on where to look for a good MMA school. They're EVERYWHERE these days!
You know, I'm always adding to my core training. Some of it has come from video and seeing how different fighting styles work. Some of it has come from genuine Japanese black belts.
I don't advocate learning soley from video, but I really wonder if he would have thought to give the knee to the guy if he'd not watched UFC.
Just a thought from an instructor in the stuff.
Josh <><
If I come at you unarmed, you better be ready to shoot me.
The reason is this: If I do have reason to come after you (let's say I have rabies or something) I will kill you. There will be bone breaking but mostly elbows and hand strikes to the throat, head, and back and sides of the neck. Might break your neck too.
You hadn't seen this guy in eight years. Did you know for certain he hadn't been trained in that time?
Recently - about two weeks ago - I found that hard drugs were doing the rounds in my circle of close friends (only a few in all). Though I have known them for 20 years or so, I pretty much said "screw ya'" and walked away. I no longer consider them friends but dangerous aquaintences who look to prey on others.
I had a threatening phone call from one of them. He stopped short of threatening bodily harm, but did talk about what he'd do to my vehicle.
I am trained maybe one or two steps above him in MMA/Aikido tuned for street fighting. However, if he does drugs and I don't, that gives him an advantage - his drugs of choice are methodone wafers and narcotic pain relievers. I doubt he's feeling much pain.
In other words, I would be in fear for my life. A martial arts trained guy who is high on hard stuff? No, thanks.
Josh <><
The reason is this: If I do have reason to come after you (let's say I have rabies or something) I will kill you. There will be bone breaking but mostly elbows and hand strikes to the throat, head, and back and sides of the neck. Might break your neck too.
You hadn't seen this guy in eight years. Did you know for certain he hadn't been trained in that time?
Recently - about two weeks ago - I found that hard drugs were doing the rounds in my circle of close friends (only a few in all). Though I have known them for 20 years or so, I pretty much said "screw ya'" and walked away. I no longer consider them friends but dangerous aquaintences who look to prey on others.
I had a threatening phone call from one of them. He stopped short of threatening bodily harm, but did talk about what he'd do to my vehicle.
I am trained maybe one or two steps above him in MMA/Aikido tuned for street fighting. However, if he does drugs and I don't, that gives him an advantage - his drugs of choice are methodone wafers and narcotic pain relievers. I doubt he's feeling much pain.
In other words, I would be in fear for my life. A martial arts trained guy who is high on hard stuff? No, thanks.
Josh <><
Are you both around the same age and size?
Was there the possibility of disengaging the threat after the first swing? If there was no weapon- could you have simply ran away?
I'm not stating that's what I would do- just looking at possibilities on how things could play out.
I'd say if you had any prior knowledge of the threat being trained in fighting then you'd have more of a case if you had to draw your weapon.
Since this was a fight and he wasn't balls to the wall trying to KILL you (that you knew of) I'd bet had you drawn your weapon confidently as soon as he saw it he'd back down.
That stated, it's not too far of a stretch to fear for your life with an empty hand assault.
Pick up some books and perhaps seek some tactical training?
I just reviewed a book that would help you out in this case a bit:
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31436
Had you drawn though 99% he'd stop and pee himself and NEVER bother you again.
My TIVO records all those "Wildest Police Video" type of shows. I kept one to show people how VALID it is to carry.
There was a shady guy who was walking towards the camera guy who was just shooting exterior scenes for the news. It was daylight. There were cars and other patrons outside the convenience store.
The shady guy is walking to the camera man purposely, but calmly and it was hard to tell he was a threat until he was 10ft or so away and revealed a LARGE knife!
Camera dude didn't have any weapons and just stated over a few times he had no money. There were people watching this. It was odd- but real life.
He then went to hassle other people and eventually left.
In this case, I wonder if camera dude did have a gun and drew it...the attacker may have rushed him and at that distance he'd be injured badly- most likely.
You just never know unless you are there or there is video tape of the incident.
Did you ever wonder what if your threat had a knife and instead of a punch it was a stab?
Alls well that ends well. Glad you aren't hurt or in jail.
Was there the possibility of disengaging the threat after the first swing? If there was no weapon- could you have simply ran away?
I'm not stating that's what I would do- just looking at possibilities on how things could play out.
I'd say if you had any prior knowledge of the threat being trained in fighting then you'd have more of a case if you had to draw your weapon.
Since this was a fight and he wasn't balls to the wall trying to KILL you (that you knew of) I'd bet had you drawn your weapon confidently as soon as he saw it he'd back down.
That stated, it's not too far of a stretch to fear for your life with an empty hand assault.
Pick up some books and perhaps seek some tactical training?
I just reviewed a book that would help you out in this case a bit:
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31436
Had you drawn though 99% he'd stop and pee himself and NEVER bother you again.
My TIVO records all those "Wildest Police Video" type of shows. I kept one to show people how VALID it is to carry.
There was a shady guy who was walking towards the camera guy who was just shooting exterior scenes for the news. It was daylight. There were cars and other patrons outside the convenience store.
The shady guy is walking to the camera man purposely, but calmly and it was hard to tell he was a threat until he was 10ft or so away and revealed a LARGE knife!
Camera dude didn't have any weapons and just stated over a few times he had no money. There were people watching this. It was odd- but real life.
He then went to hassle other people and eventually left.
In this case, I wonder if camera dude did have a gun and drew it...the attacker may have rushed him and at that distance he'd be injured badly- most likely.
You just never know unless you are there or there is video tape of the incident.
Did you ever wonder what if your threat had a knife and instead of a punch it was a stab?
Alls well that ends well. Glad you aren't hurt or in jail.
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