[21bubba]

I'm curious about something. In another thread people were being critical of the type of grip a guy was using in a photo. I believe that the grip used while using a handgun would vary , depending on a person's comfort. I guess what i'm trying to say is, nobody grips a baseball bat,golf club or tennis raquet exaxtly the same as the next guy.
If I use a grip that works for me, shouldn't that be the grip I should use? Do you have to use a grip that (insert famous gun guru's name)reccomend ?

 

[JD]

While a poor grip may work, a better grip is just better. People don't often know what they don't know. If you don't know your grip is poor and no one tells you, you'll never know.

Sure, there are different ways to grip a gun, but the physics of recoil control don't change and a "proper grip" is beneficial to all.

Having had a Bersa .380 such as the guy in the other thread, and having coached people using that Bersa, I can honestly say that tea cupping that thing is ineffective.

 

[C9H13NO3]

Shooting is as much science as it is art. There are different holds that work for different people, but there are also certain techniques which are proven to be effective. There's no one "best" way to hold it that works for absolutely everyone, but there definitely are wrong ways to hold it.

 

[CenCal]

Of course you may use whatever grip works best for you.

The others are actually trying to be helpful when being critical of the aforementioned thread in which an op was using a "tea cup" grip.

The Isosceles Stance and Weaver Stance have proven to be effective methods for teaching 1st time shooters to become proficient shooters. Mature instructors can identify problems and correct as needed.

If the shooter with the "Tea Cup" grip is wise enough to look beyond personal pride, then perhaps he could achieve greater accuracy using Isosceles Stance and/or Weaver Stance.

Odds are he is already a better shooter than me, but why not try and get better if it is possible.

I for one, am not satisfied with my marksmenship skills until I can shoot like Bob Munden.

 

[steyrsdad]

+1

Of course you may use whatever grip works best for you.

The others are actually trying to be helpful when being critical of the aforementioned thread in which an op was using a "tea cup" grip.

The Isosceles Stance and Weaver Stance have proven to be effective methods for teaching 1st time shooters to become proficient shooters. Mature instructors can identify problems and correct as needed.

If the shooter with the "Tea Cup" grip is wise enough to look beyond personal pride, then perhaps he could achieve greater accuracy using Isosceles Stance and/or Weaver Stance.

Odds are he is already a better shooter than me, but why not try and get better if it is possible.

I for one, am not satisfied with my marksmenship skills until I can shoot like Bob Munden.

look beyond personal pride

 

[MinisterMalice]

Of course there will always be adaptations for an individual's situation and conditions, but why tinker with what works? If his given stance is ineffective and can be made effective, that is the kind of advice you need to improve.

That's why I love DC, personally.

 

[cz75luver]

Yeah, I hear the same thing about stance and the latest is to be squared off to the subject. That's great if you have a vest, but just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway . . .

I'd say go with what works for you. Just experiment and pick one.

 

[Majorlk]

While a poor grip may work, a better grip is just better. People don't often know what they don't know. If you don't know your grip is poor and no one tells you, you'll never know.

Sure, there are different ways to grip a gun, but the physics of recoil control don't change and a "proper grip" is beneficial to all.

Having had a Bersa .380 such as the guy in the other thread, and having coached people using that Bersa, I can honestly say that tea cupping that thing is ineffective.

About as effective as gripping the strong wrist with the weak hand ...

 

[21bubba]

So a shooter should use "accepted" grip even if it isn't comfortable?

I also agree about the acceptable stance. Just because it works for SWAT or compition shooters doesn't mean it works in the real world.

 

[JD]

So a shooter should use "accepted" grip even if it isn't comfortable?

I also agree about the acceptable stance. Just because it works for SWAT or compition shooters doesn't mean it works in the real world.

Yeah, because SWAT is just make believe right? :bier:


Here's the thing. Take Datsun's grip, it may "work" for him. But as far as grips go, it's about a step above useless. The support hand isn't supposed to be just a rest, it's supposed to help control the gun during recoil.

Your text book isosceles, weaver, whatever stance may not work perfectly for all, but they can serve as a starting point to find a modified position of such that does work for them.

If someone is using a comfortable grip and shooting like dog crap, maybe they need to try an uncomfortable grip, watch their groups improve and work on making the grip/stance comfortable.

I've seen people rant and rave up one side and down the other about how great their "stance" is and how they refuse to change, but when I see them shoot, the gun is jumping out of their hands and they can't hit jack squat. With a little adjustment and an open mind, their shooting improves.

Case in point.

Lima before instruction

Lima after some instruction

What happened in between those two pictures?

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/general-firearm-discussion/22406-stance.html, more instruction, learning, and more range time.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...o-firing-line-range-report-myself-my-gun.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...-two-day-general-defensive-handgun-class.html

Now prior to learning more, her accuracy was acceptable, and to her "worked just fine", but after some experimentation and LISTENING to other shooters/instructors, her performance improved 10 fold.

 

[buckeye .45]

So a shooter should use "accepted" grip even if it isn't comfortable?

I also agree about the acceptable stance. Just because it works for SWAT or compition shooters doesn't mean it works in the real world.

I'll throw this out there, if the accepted grip/hold makes the shooter more accurate and increases survivability, then comfort is a moot point.

For CQB we are taught a way to move, hold/fire our weapons, and stand, that is rather uncomfortable, especially when doing it the first few times in full gear (about 40 pounds of body armor). Because of how it is taught and the effects it has, it increases survivability for a number of reasons.

If I was allowed to shoot the way I tried to when I started my urban combat training, it would reduce my survivability in combat, because I actually shoot better the trained way (and it still isn't comfortable all of the time). But, that is a choice I make so I can do my job more effectively (and for a person defending themselves the only job is to survive the encounter).

Of course, YMMV.

 

[Datsun40146]

Since I am the shooter in question, I feel I should chime in with my views on the subject. I know that the grip I used was not the best grip that I could use but no one ever corrected it through my CCDW course and through 6 months of competitive steel shooting. However, that grip was comfortable for me even in rapid shooting. It was controllable with the small .380 round however now that I have stepped up to 9mm, I find my groups have opened up allot and I’m shooting about 10-12 inches low, it’s really bad. I was curious where this drop I was getting was coming from, now I am starting to think that my old style .380 powered grip is just not right for the higher powered 9mm. So I know that I need to work on it and will. Hopefully I will go from being in the bottom 2/3 of the shooters at the match to the top 1/3. We will see. Thanks

PS if anyone wants to ask a question of the reformed "tea-cupper" or wants to use the pictures feel free.

 

[dukalmighty]

Yeah, because SWAT is just make believe right? :bier:


Here's the thing. Take Datsun's grip, it may "work" for him. But as far as grips go, it's about a step above useless. The support hand isn't supposed to be just a rest, it's supposed to help control the gun during recoil.

Your text book isosceles, weaver, whatever stance may not work perfectly for all, but they can serve as a starting point to find a modified position of such that does work for them.

If someone is using a comfortable grip and shooting like dog crap, maybe they need to try an uncomfortable grip, watch their groups improve and work on making the grip/stance comfortable.

I've seen people rant and rave up one side and down the other about how great their "stance" is and how they refuse to change, but when I see them shoot, the gun is jumping out of their hands and they can't hit jack squat. With a little adjustment and an open mind, their shooting improves.

Case in point.

Lima before instruction

Lima after some instruction

What happened in between those two pictures? (Her hair changed color :rofl

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/general-firearm-discussion/22406-stance.html, more instruction, learning, and more range time.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...o-firing-line-range-report-myself-my-gun.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...-two-day-general-defensive-handgun-class.html

Now prior to learning more, her accuracy was acceptable, and to her "worked just fine", but after some experimentation and LISTENING to other shooters/instructors, her performance improved 10 fold.

But you are correct,and It's easier to teach good shooting technique from the git go than to break bad habits and relearn a new stance/technique

 

[JD]

...I know that the grip I used was not the best grip that I could use but no one ever corrected it through my CCDW course and through 6 months of competitive steel shooting.

"CCW Courses" aren't really about improving your skill set, but more about demonstrating you have a skill set to start with. Odds are you did well enough to let the instructor worry about the "problem student(s)" that really needed the help.

However, that grip was comfortable for me even in rapid shooting. It was controllable with the small .380 round however now that I have stepped up to 9mm, I find my groups have opened up allot and I’m shooting about 10-12 inches low, it’s really bad.

What are you shooting now? I know you mentioned it in another thread...but I don't remember.

I was curious where this drop I was getting was coming from, now I am starting to think that my old style .380 powered grip is just not right for the higher powered 9mm.

It's possible, I won't rule it out, I will say that if you've never had any formal instruction other than your CCW class, you may want to take a look at finding a local NRA Class to help fine tune and get a live pair of eyes watching what you do.

So I know that I need to work on it and will. Hopefully I will go from being in the bottom 2/3 of the shooters at the match to the top 1/3. We will see. Thanks

Keeping an open mind is very important, you should try to be a constant student, trying to learn and improve. I'm 30 and have been shooting for 20+ years and I still learn more and more after every match and trip to the range. Seek out those top shooters at the steel match and watch them, talk to them, ask them to watch you and give you pointers.

But you are correct,and It's easier to teach good shooting technique from the git go than to break bad habits and relearn a new stance/technique

It wasn't easy, finally I had to take a "hands off" approach and let her learn things on her own. I think her getting a job at the range is what paid off the most by getting her around more seasoned shooters.

 

[nedrgr21]

I look at it this way - when have you ever been comfortable when getting better at something? All it costs to try is a few rounds and few minutes, if it makes you better, you'll learn to like it. Subtle differences in technique can pay huge dividends so why not try something new.

 

[21bubba]

Unless you are SWAT, what applies to them doesn't apply to a ccw carrier.

Just because you own a chevy impala doesn't mean you drive like Jimmie Johnson.

 

[JD]

Unless you are SWAT, what applies to them doesn't apply to a ccw carrier.

Just because you own a chevy impala doesn't mean you drive like Jimmie Johnson.

Tactically speaking, sure, I don't plan on stacking up with the wife and kid before entering the Dairy Queen, but when it comes to the best possible use of a pistol, I think it most definitely applies, the basic fundamentals are the same from the draw, to presentation, to firing regardless of...vocation. If you're fine with just going out there and doing your own thing, that's cool. I'm not saying that everyone needs to change how they do things. But if there's a way to improve my shooting, or to try and help others to improve theirs, I'm going to voice my opinion and try and help them.

 

[21bubba]

I do agree, what works for one doesn't always work for the other.

I think this all goes back to the fact that when my daughter started grade school they made her convert from being left handed. Poor kid thought she was a freak.

 

[buckeye .45]

Unless you are SWAT, what applies to them doesn't apply to a ccw carrier.

Just because you own a chevy impala doesn't mean you drive like Jimmie Johnson.

I see what you are saying, and to some degree, it does apply to CCW'ers (And I'm not on a SWAT team, FWIW). The fundamentals of shooting don't really change much no matter what kind of shooting you are doing. However, I would equate shooting in defense of your life a lot more with what SWAT guys train for/do, than what a competition bullseye shooter trains for/does.

Now, going with your statement about chevy impalas and Jimmie Johnson. If you were at the local auto part store and Jimmie came in an offered to help you work on your engine, or that he was going to take a short drive with you to offer pointers on how to improve your driving, would you listen to him or take his help (I know I sure as heck would).

I don't think anyone on here has ever claimed to know everything these is to know about SD, but we have a pretty good think-tank going here, made up of people from all walks of life, with various amounts of firearms training/experience/use. We have people on here whose job it is to use firearms to provide security for other people. They rely on their weapons to make it back to their family at the end of the day, while dealing with self defense situations on a regular basis. And we also have people who just bought their first firearm and are here to try to learn more (something we should all do on a daily basis). And everything in between.

I'll step off my soap-box now, hopefully that made some sense. YMMV.

 

[ECHOONE]

Most beginners are taught to use the cross thumb grip.I was in the military and used it for years! but there are more proficient grips! the choice is personal.It might not feel right at first to you,and until your comfortable with it,you might not even see an improvement at first,but as you work on it you sure will. I now grip with my thumbs forward which was hard to do at first,but it has improved my accuracy,try it,you'll see