Gun disarm, gun grab.

3383 Views 35 Replies 13 Participants Last post by Doghandler, Jun 16, 2013

Harryball

Discussion Starter · May 31, 2013

I am a strong advocate for being able to handle ones self with H2H techniques. I have studied Krav a little bit thru private instruction and Have found it very beneficial. If you have a gun in your face, this is a technique that can help you win the fight....

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Hopyard

· #2 · May 31, 2013

Although I doubt in the real world you would find yourself at 90 degrees to the shooter in the position shown, please
look at about 2:08-2:15 as from that position one could not only effect a disarm, but drive the attacker right down to his knees.
Note how the hands are clasped giving you considerable leverage on the wrist and forearm.

May no one reading here ever need to play this dangerous disarm game in real life. Its jolly at the gym though.

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Harryball

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 31, 2013

Hopyard said:
Although I doubt in the real world you would find yourself at 90 degrees to the shooter in the position shown, please
look at about 2:08-2:15 as from that position one could not only effect a disarm, but drive the attacker right down to his knees.
Note how the hands are clasped giving you considerable leverage on the wrist and forearm.

May no one reading here ever need to play this dangerous disarm game in real life. Its jolly at the gym though.

It was done at the 90 degrees for demonstration. I hope no one here has to play this game in real life either, but if you have to, its nice to have the tools to do so.

tcox4freedom

· #4 · May 31, 2013

My disarm technique is very similar to these done by Victor Marx.

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tcox4freedom

· #5 · May 31, 2013

This is a pretty good video discussing the "timing" of accomplishing disarms.

Hopyard

· #6 · Jun 1, 2013 (Edited)

Small circle stuff as shown in post 4 around 4:40 ish is extremely effective but somewhat technique sensitive. Its a hoot in the gym to
make your opponent go up and down and wherever you want him to. He also shows attacking fingers; a thing of beauty when done well. Unlike the large muscle group moves of Krav (nothing wrong with Krav) this stuff is art.

I was at one "seminar" where some of this
was referred to as the dance of pain. I hope I never (and no one here too) ever have to find out if it works in the real world.

Hopyard

· #7 · Jun 1, 2013

Harryball said:
It was done at the 90 degrees for demonstration. I hope no one here has to play this game in real life either, but if you have to, its nice to have the tools to do so.

There are bunches of knife disarm techniques to be found in: "Black Belt Krav Maga" Levine and Hoover. But, many seem
more suited to military situations and hostage situations than the street thug's robbery attempt.

Correction, I meant to type "gun disarm" above, however the book also has knife and stick disarms.

Thanks for the like G-man.

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Snub44

· #8 · Jun 1, 2013

...most folks never try this stuff...think it's for the kung fu wizards...let me encourage EVERYONE to expose themselves to at least one session of training disarming a gunman...

...I am undoubtedly the slowest human being I know with reactions...when they told us we were going to learn to take a cocked revolver out of a man's hand before he could shoot it, I laughed out loud...before the day was out, I was doing it...

...I hesitate to tell this but the cop who did it's dead, so he won't care...we played hard way back when...I'd been on about 6 years and he and I were out in the hall with about 4 others talking before roll call...I, being left-handed, had a plastic cone cup of coffee in my right hand and as we mouthed back and forth, he got a bit irritated...I finally pulled his cork and he hissed "why, you..."
and drew his Llama 1911 .45, pretending to shoot me...everyone started to laugh and before I even knew I was going to, with my left hand I took his slide and racked it back, locked my thumb through the trigger guard, dropped his chambered round on the floor , then his mag...and held on tight...everyone ROARED as he stood there, tugging on his gun, telling me to "give me my gun back"...I told him sure, if he promised to be a big boy and not play with it in the house...

...I didn't even spill a drop of coffee...thirty minutes later I was still asking "How'd I do that?"

...if I can...you can...no matter who you are...I am an unconordivated klutz and not even joking about how slow I am...

...in a bad situation, let your will to survive drive your body to do things you normally can't do...these courses/trainings will put the mechanics into your brain...it will use them when needed...automatically...have faith enough to believe we don't use but a fraction of the mind power He gave us...

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G-man*

· #9 · Jun 1, 2013

Hopyard said:
There are bunches of knife disarm techniques to be found in: "Black Belt Krav Maga" Levine and Hoover. But, many seem
more suited to military situations and hostage situations than the street thug's robbery attempt.

Correction, I meant to type "gun disarm" above, however the book also has knife and stick disarms.

Thanks for the like G-man.

Hey no problem. The " war arts ", are just that, war, where the object is to kill the other person. It doesn't take into account the psychological mindset of thuggery, where there is a vast difference.

Practicing traditional Chinese Kenpo for 22 years, I can tell you that the disarming techniques are not even introduced until the 2nd Brown belt level. And it can take years to get to that level.

The reason is simple; it is a full commitment movement, no turning back.

Now many would argue that when someone has a gun pointed at you, that this is as serious as it gets, and its time to act.
Now, I would not argue that point, but would argue the type of action.

I would be hesitant to recommend action learned from a video or garage taught techniques.

On the field of battle, immediate action is a requirement, kill or be killed.
On the street, an understanding of criminal behavior and the felony mindset may be a better tool.

But, I suppose having a plan is half the battle, so make your choices wisely.

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Doghandler

· #10 · Jun 1, 2013

Ca'mon folks, it's not that complicated. It's a generic grab, turn and twist with some behind the scenes leg work. It's like every other self defense situation. Are you a lefty or a righty? Is your opponent/s lefties or a righties? Is the weapon high or low or vertical or horizontal or some poem in between? Do you make your move from the inside out or from the outside in? How did I arrive in this horrendous situation in the first place?.

I'm never convinced to the point of comfort with any of these gun grabbing techniques - there is just too much that can go wrong. The gun grab can go wrong quickly for me or you or any bystanders given the inherent risk of discharge and it's not something you can test out in full contact mode - blah, as usual. If that cylinder turns while you have your hand covering it the fight could go south quick, especially if it's your strong hand.

There is, however, no reason not to carry these techniques around in your repertoire if you are willing to accept the responsibility and the risk. Hey, wait a minute. :wave:

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Snub44

· #11 · Jun 1, 2013

...try or die, I'm gonna be tryin' every time...and I DON'T jump off'n no tall buildings...

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Fast Cloud

· #12 · Jun 1, 2013

Hopyard said:
Small circle stuff as shown in post 4 around 4:40 ish is extremely effective but somewhat technique sensitive. Its a hoot in the gym to
make your opponent go up and down and wherever you want him to. He also shows attacking fingers; a thing of beauty when done well. Unlike the large muscle group moves of Krav (nothing wrong with Krav) this stuff is art.

It is...and it's called Hapkido. Practice, practice, practice. It's addictive but quite painful. You have to be a sado-masochist to reach your 1st degree blackbelt.:1:

AOK

· #13 · Jun 2, 2013

Good thread!

Two areas I think are overlooked too often are handgun retention and gun disarms. Based on my limited experience ( 1 1/2 year of Krav) they take a lot of training starting at a crawl pace (by the numbers), walk (picking up speed), run (FOF). I also have several drills to work on at home which helped me immensely prepare for KM classes. One of the biggest ones was quickly redirecting and controlling a dowel rod which I place at different heights, standing at different distances, and pointing at me in different locations. In addition I have a torso (long sleeved stuffed shirt with gloves). I can hang it on my heavy bag and work on not just the disarms but what to do with the firearm when I get it from the assailant and finishing the fight.

In my mind, it's a big gamble to try to disarm, even if you are very well trained. But then again you are gambling not doing anything all.......

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Bad Bob

· #14 · Jun 2, 2013

The disarms work best inside arms reach. Outside of that distance you are taking quite a chance. I make no differentiation on where I am or who has a gun on me, my reaction is going to be the same. If they are within reach I am going to hurt them, if they are not I am going to bust off the X and engage them. It is not idle internet banter, been there done that.

The important thing is offline, redirect and trap. It is interesting in the video they show how holding the gun causes a malfunction. Any disarm should be so fast and brutal they do not get another shot anyway, done correctly you take the trigger finger with the gun.

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Harryball

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jun 2, 2013

Hopyard said:
There are bunches of knife disarm techniques to be found in: "Black Belt Krav Maga" Levine and Hoover. But, many seem
more suited to military situations and hostage situations than the street thug's robbery attempt.

Correction, I meant to type "gun disarm" above, however the book also has knife and stick disarms.

Thanks for the like G-man.

While it is good for military applications, it also pertains to civilians. To say otherwise IMO is a little naive. Someone sticking a gun or a knife in your face is cause for immediate action. If its in arms length distance H2H can work, if not within that distance, like Bob said, you bust off the x and engage.

Hopyard

· #16 · Jun 2, 2013 (Edited)

Harryball said:
While it is good for military applications, it also pertains to civilians. To say otherwise IMO is a little naive. Someone sticking a gun or a knife in your face is cause for immediate action. If its in arms length distance H2H can work, if not within that distance, like Bob said, you bust off the x and engage.

My comment needs some clarification. Lots of stuff in there is disarms of things like carbines, which though these have
use in civilian life, our discussions about proportion of crimes committed with AR/AK like weapons suggests that these disarms
need not be high priority for study. Also, lots of the disarms described in that book are geared for military combat situation that don't really have civilian applications which are precise equivalents. Being taken hostage, or prisoner, is rare in the USA-- and I won't travel to Mexico, thank you.

In my lessons I've practiced fighting back with arms bound in front of or behind my back, with legs bound, and being led
off as in a hostage being taken situation. These are interesting exercises and eyeopening, but for most of us very unlikely
real life situations.

In the end, no matter which art, no matter which specific technique, they all sort of boil down to the same thing. There are
only so many ways to use your hands, feet, body, head, teeth, to escape or to inflict pain.

And really, though I talk of these things as if I am particularly knowledgeable of skilled or tough, I am not. It is just something I took up as a hobby for exercise, for socializing, and out of fascination with what can be done. I haven't a clue
how any of what I do in the gym would turn out in the real world. In the real world you can't tap out, and in the gym
the other guy is probably not going to go at you full tilt, nor you at him. I'd probably just cry.

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Harryball

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jun 2, 2013

Hopyard said:
My comment needs some clarification. Lots of stuff in there is disarms of things like carbines, which though these have
use in civilian life, our discussions about proportion of crimes committed with AR/AK like weapons suggests that these disarms
need not be high priority for study. Also, lots of the disarms described in that book are geared for military combat situation that don't really have civilian applications which are precise equivalents. Being taken hostage, or prisoner, is rare in the USA-- and I won't travel to Mexico, thank you.

In my lessons I've practiced fighting back with arms bound in front of or behind my back, with legs bound, and being led
off as in a hostage being taken situation. These are interesting exercises and eyeopening, but for most of us very unlikely
real life situations.

In the end, no matter which art, no matter which specific technique, they all sort of boil down to the same thing. There are
only so many ways to use your hands, feet, body, head, teeth, to escape or to inflict pain.

And really, though I talk of these things as if I am particularly knowledgeable of skilled or tough, I am not. It is just something I took up as a hobby for exercise, for socializing, and out of fascination with what can be done. I haven't a clue
how any of what I do in the gym would turn out in the real world. In the real world you can't tap out, and in the gym
the other guy is probably not going to go at you full tilt, nor you at him. I'd probably just cry.

I did not make any mention of rifles and neither did the video. You speak of real life scenarios and admit, not having a clue. While others have had knife attacks and guns pointed in there face. So for some, it has real world applications. I appreciate you admitting that you have no clue, that's a "man up" move. :yup: However, there are real world applications for this training. If you have not tried it, I would recommend it...

Hopyard

· #18 · Jun 2, 2013

Harryball said:
I did not make any mention of rifles and neither did the video. You speak of real life scenarios and admit, not having a clue. While others have had knife attacks and guns pointed in there face. So for some, it has real world applications. I appreciate you admitting that you have no clue, that's a "man up" move. :yup: However, there are real world applications for this training. If you have not tried it, I would recommend it...

Further clarification: The Book I mentioned, "Black Belt Krav Maga" contains many gun disarms, and many of them are for
long guns and the techniques are military oriented. I don't deny that there are rare real world applications for that training,
I'm only suggesting that time spent on handgun disarms, knife disarms, and stick-bat- etc., disarms is probably a better
use of time.

I'm actually quite unaware about what we are disagreeing on, though it seems from the tone of your above post that I wrote
something that hit a nerve.

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Doghandler

· #19 · Jun 2, 2013

40Bob said:
The disarms work best inside arms reach. Outside of that distance you are taking quite a chance. I make no differentiation on where I am or who has a gun on me, my reaction is going to be the same. If they are within reach I am going to hurt them, if they are not I am going to bust off the X and engage them. It is not idle internet banter, been there done that.

The important thing is offline, redirect and trap. It is interesting in the video they show how holding the gun causes a malfunction. Any disarm should be so fast and brutal they do not get another shot anyway, done correctly you take the trigger finger with the gun.

40Bob walks a dangerous and trusted trail, but along with the trigger finger, one should also take the wrist, the elbow and at least one knee joint while you're at it.

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G-man*

· #20 · Jun 2, 2013

I doubt anyone in the world with anything resembling a life has the time or energy to train for every conceivable scenario, moreover become proficient enough to actually pull it off, unless you are a SEAL, Force Recon, or other type of person that learns it as part of your job.

These days I prefer just to enjoy my guns for the enjoyment of shooting them, and leave the high speed low drag of low probabilities up to those that have the time to dither would such things.

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