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If we didn't have kooks who refuse to behave in ways that don't endanger others, we wouldn't have authoritarian types forcing everyone to "do the right thing." Goes for vaccinations, disease prevention, gun control, etc.
So you think if all gun owners just played nice we would not have all this gun control?
I strongly disagree with you here, brother.
History is filled with examples of people who were forced to do what someone else thought was the right thing.
It never turned out well for the people.
 

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I doubt the Government will mandate a C19 vaccine if one is developed.

But I'll probably get one if one is developed.
 

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Maybe, but it's not the first time it's come up, and from what I can tell, compulsory vaccination is lawful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Of course, the answer may be different for any particular situation and vaccine, but in principle the states have the power to mandate vaccination in at least some situations.
They still can't force someone to get vaccinated.

I'm not against vaccines, all my kids had the usual childhood vaccines with no ill effects. I rarely get the flu shot and have never had the flu. I got it last year because my doctor really wanted me to, so I did. Again, no problem with it.

However, those vaccines weren't hurried to market and the standard safety tests weren't bypassed as they will have to be with the new COVID vaccine being developed. It usually takes a minimum of 18 months to develop a vaccine and about 95% of them never make it to market for one reason or another.

So, if people choose to get the vaccine, I have no problem with that...but I'll wait a year or so and see how it goes. I certainly wouldn't let my child get one because kids are already low risk.

If the government should try and force this on people, then some horrible unintended consequence results, it's going to get ugly.
 

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At least you are consistent.
Just wondering is there anything that the government would mandate that you would find objectionable and would finally say enough is enough?
Of course, plenty of things.

Where I think some people err is in suggesting a potential abuse of some state power, and concluding from potential alone that the state should not have that power.

I believe that the potential for abuse is inherent in government, and to remove any potential for abuse would mean removing government entirely - which, even if it might seem appealing, is simply not possible.

Therefore, we all have to accept some potential for government to violate our rights as a fact of life. That doesn't mean we have to accept an actual violation of our rights.

Speaking of a mandatory vaccination for COVID-19, whether or not it's a violation of anyone's rights would depend on a lot of things that are entirely hypothetical at the moment.
 

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Of course, plenty of things.

Where I think some people err is in suggesting a potential abuse of some state power, and concluding from potential alone that the state should not have that power.

I believe that the potential for abuse is inherent in government, and to remove any potential for abuse would mean removing government entirely - which, even if it might seem appealing, is simply not possible.

Therefore, we all have to accept some potential for government to violate our rights as a fact of life. That doesn't mean we have to accept an actual violation of our rights.

Speaking of a mandatory vaccination for COVID-19, whether or not it's a violation of anyone's rights would depend on a lot of things that are entirely hypothetical at the moment.
Any medical procedure that is mandatory is a bridge too far for me.
What about the forced lobotomies that were performed on patients in the past. They were for the public good.
For me it is safer to err with the Constitution. But we all have our opinions and we can respectfully disagree
 

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Therefore, we all have to accept some potential for government to violate our rights as a fact of life. That doesn't mean we have to accept an actual violation of our rights.

Speaking of a mandatory vaccination for COVID-19, whether or not it's a violation of anyone's rights would depend on a lot of things that are entirely hypothetical at the moment.
Is it hypothetical to require people quarantine themselves? Wear masks when they are out in public? Close their businesses for months at a time? Arrest people for walking on a beach? Arrest shop owners for giving haircuts? Make it illegal to sell vegetables at a garden center?

Never underestimate the government's will to violate our rights...it's happening as we speak. All they have to do is wrap it in, "it's for your own health and safety".
 

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They still can't force someone to get vaccinated.

I'm not against vaccines, all my kids had the usual childhood vaccines with no ill effects. I rarely get the flu shot and have never had the flu. I got it last year because my doctor really wanted me to, so I did. Again, no problem with it.

However, those vaccines weren't hurried to market and the standard safety tests weren't bypassed as they will have to be with the new COVID vaccine being developed. It usually takes a minimum of 18 months to develop a vaccine and about 95% of them never make it to market for one reason or another.

So, if people choose to get the vaccine, I have no problem with that...but I'll wait a year or so and see how it goes. I certainly wouldn't let my child get one because kids are already low risk.

If the government should try and force this on people, then some horrible unintended consequence results, it's going to get ugly.
They can certainly punish people who refuse a mandatory vaccination. I respect your position, but IMHO it's too early to decide what one will or won't do, since we don't know yet whether there will be a vaccine, whether it will be mandatory, how effective it would be, what the side effects would be and for whom, how the disease will establish itself in the meantime, or what penalties might be in place for refusing vaccination.
 

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They can certainly punish people who refuse a mandatory vaccination. I respect your position, but IMHO it's too early to decide what one will or won't do, since we don't know yet whether there will be a vaccine, whether it will be mandatory, how effective it would be, what the side effects would be and for whom, how the disease will establish itself in the meantime, or what penalties might be in place for refusing vaccination.
How would they punish them?

We better start thinking of those things because they're talking about a vaccine possibly being ready by this fall.

I don't think the government will go so far as to force this on people, but things are happening right now that I could never imagine either.
 

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Is it hypothetical to require people quarantine themselves? Wear masks when they are out in public? Close their businesses for months at a time? Arrest people for walking on a beach? Arrest shop owners for giving haircuts? Make it illegal to sell vegetables at a garden center?

Never underestimate the government's will to violate our rights...it's happening as we speak. All they have to do is wrap it in, "it's for your own health and safety".
I can't speak to every instance, but broadly, I'm not convinced any of those things violate anyone's rights.
 

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You don't believe that people have the right to Life, Liberty and Property?
I think the case I linked before says it very well:

"Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."
 

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I think the case I linked before says it very well:

"Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy
. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."
And that isn't what's happening. What's happening is the unelected bureaucrats in the medical community are making "laws" for the rest of us to follow and the consequences are jail and fines. Some Governors are overstepping their powers and making "laws"...they are not Legislatures and cannot make laws. States of Emergency are only supposed to be used for short, defined times. It's going on and on with no real common sense being used.
 

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And that isn't what's happening. What's happening is the unelected bureaucrats in the medical community are making "laws" for the rest of us to follow and the consequences are jail and fines. Some Governors are overstepping their powers and making "laws"...they are not Legislatures and cannot make laws. States of Emergency are only supposed to be used for short, defined times. It's going on and on with no real common sense being used.
I'm not sure which bureaucrats you mean specifically, but from what I know, they're either giving recommendations to state governments which are enacting them, or are empowered by legislature to make rules.

If the legislatures disagree with their governors about what they're doing or for how long, they have avenues to deal with it, as some have. The checks and balances seem to be working as well as one can expect.
 

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And that isn't what's happening. What's happening is the unelected bureaucrats in the medical community are making "laws" for the rest of us to follow and the consequences are jail and fines. Some Governors are overstepping their powers and making "laws"...they are not Legislatures and cannot make laws. States of Emergency are only supposed to be used for short, defined times. It's going on and on with no real common sense being used.
I am very concerned of being ruled by unelected technocrats. At least with our elected officials we can vote them out or recall them.
These technocrats or beholding to no one and can say and do as they please and the sheep that we elected to represent us are following their lead almost without questioning.
They are using the "crisis" to change the world into the image that they have been dreaming about for a long time.
A world ruled by unelected people who will control us because we are too ignorant to know what is good for us.
All the dystopian novels I read for entertainment are now sadly becoming a reality in the near future if we are not careful and extremely vigilant.
 

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I'm not sure which bureaucrats you mean specifically, but from what I know, they're either giving recommendations to state governments which are enacting them, or are empowered by legislature to make rules.

If the legislatures disagree with their governors about what they're doing or for how long, they have avenues to deal with it, as some have. The checks and balances seem to be working as well as one can expect.
The Legislature can only deal with it IF they are in session. If not, they have no input whatsoever, beyond what any citizen has.

The Governor would have to call them into a Special Session to address the situation and that's not likely to happen.

The bureaucrats I'm talking about are in the Health Departments and CDC.
 

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This discussion of obeying unjust laws has brought this to mind for me.
It has been a long time since I have read it.
Please do not misunderstand me as I would never equate what our Black Brothers and Sisters went through in the past with what we are dealing with today with this Covid crisis and the unjust laws we find ourselves forced to obey.
But it was eerie to me as I replaced The covid laws with the reasons Dr. King was arrested.

Letter from a Birmingham Jail
16 April 1963
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
 

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Awww come on folks. Give the old man a break.

He was hung over from a weekend of drugs and alcohol and slept through the class where they were explained the difference between a DEMOCRACY and a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

They don't teach that concept at Havaad anymore.
@KILTED COWBOY Brother, I feel Dr. King must have been on this forum at some point. Surely his spirit must have visited....

While confined here in the Birmingham city jail, I came across your recent statement calling my present activities "unwise and untimely."
How many times I have heard that very sentiment here on DC in regards to believing a particular course of action is the only alternative to tyranny?
 

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I doubt the Government will mandate a C19 vaccine if one is developed.

But I'll probably get one if one is developed.
Never underestimate what the government will mandate.
I never in my life would have thought that they would mandate the shuttering of thriving business, outlawing going to the beach, or fishing. Visiting my family and friends.
 
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