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I have been wondering here - let us say you intervene when present at an armed robbery. BG had gun but thru your own gun on him decides to opt to live another day.... surrenders his piece and ''assumes the position'' on floor.

So - you have him at gun point, his piece is secured by you or another and 911 has been called ... and you wait ...............

During said wait, BG decides he wants freedom - no fight - just freedom. He gets up and makes to escape. He is now unarmed and so presents no lethal threat.

You remind him he is covered but he continues to want to escape.

As I see it - for us as non LE, we cannot actually shoot?? No threat - then we have no legal recourse to self defence any more. Do we have to let him go?

Just interested to get your take on this.
 

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the BG

in this instance you can't shoot.
Your life or that of another is not in danger.
Let's hope when you took the BG's weapon you didn't smudge all the fingerprints.

AFS
 

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No, you cannot shoot. However, he has commited a felony and having done so in your presence and the presence of others you can legally detain him by making a citizens arrest. By detain I mean by any means available short of lethal force, which includes the use of physical force. You and the other bystanders can physically hold him until police arrive. If he is injured you will be in no legal trouble. Depending on how it goes with the attorneys you could face a civil suit, but that would be the extent of your liability.
 

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Yep, what ACParmed said. I guess this also brings up another item to stow in the ole "equipment bag".....wire ties !
 

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"No threat - then we have no legal recourse to self defence any more"

You just answered your own question. If you take off after the BG, YOU now become the threat.At least, that's the way it is here in Connecticut.
 

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acparmed said:
you could face a civil suit, but that would be the extent of your liability.
Which means he or his family will now own your house, car and everything else you used to own.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yeah - I did sorta answer my own question! But I guess I was considering a situation where reinforcements were thin on the ground - certainly tie-wraps sound like a useful thing to have on hand.

It's just that short of successful physical restraint - the application of which could be risky for the less than experienced - we really are not in a very strong position as short term BG ''custodians''. Gun or not. Thx for replies.
 

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Here is something I haven't seen mentioned here. What if you are standing in the only escape route available to the bg?

He has to charge past you on his way out. Who is to say he won't make a grab for your weapon?
 

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"Then he's gonna have to hang on, because I'm gonna light him up and it's going to be an "E" ticket ride."
Clint Smith
 

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Let em go. It s not worth the civil trouble you will get in . Also unless he is masked, usually they will I.D. em.
 

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Prospector said:
I guess this also brings up another item to stow in the ole "equipment bag".....wire ties !
I carry wire ties in my car and in my suitcase - I use them to "lock" my suitcases when traveling so I can see if the TSA goes through them. If I am at home I will handcuff him. Probably the number one thing to do is check him for ID once you get him down so if he decides to run the police can be waiting at his house when he gets there. :wink:
 

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I have to agree with most of what's been said here. Once he is disarmed and stopped his threatening behaviour, you would not be justified to shoot. Technically, you're probably not even justified to have your gun out anymore, but I doubt that would ever be an issue. If the BG decided to get up and walk towards the door, I would probably "order" him not to, but would just get out of the way and let him go.

One thing I have to disagree with is that I would not, nor would I have anyone else, approach him to cuff him or get his ID. Since you're the only one, as far as you know, with a gun at that point, distance is your best friend. To close to contact distance on him presents too many opportunities to lose your gun, or if you have someone else do it, to give him a hostage. He may have a knife somewhere and is just waiting for a good opportunity to use it.

You could order him to toss you his wallet, or toss some cuffs over and have him cuff himself, which I wouldn't trust him to do securely, but I would stay as far away as the situation would allow.

I also wouldn't try to follow him to keep track of where he went. Who knows where he would be heading and you may end up in his neighborhood and suddenly outnumbered and outgunned. Not to mention that the police you just called won't know where to find you.

I would just let him go, maybe watch which direction he went or see if he gets in a car and get a plate number, but that would be about it. At that point my duty is to be a good witness, so I would try to memorize whatever I could about him to give the best description I could.

Seems like at this point in the situation, the best tool you could add to your carry arsenal would be the smallest camera you could find. Maybe something like this.

Of course this is all my opinion, and I am not a Lawyer, LEO, or Special Forces Operator, so don't listen to me ;)

Mike
 

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He decides to live another day and stops the threatening act and leaves. Good riddance. I'll grab some paper and write a description. Wait for the police. I'll not close to contact distance. I'll not detain him physically in any way.

Citizen's arrest statutes vary widely. In Kentucky you can shoot a fleeing felon. In Utah you may detain a felon, but of use deadly force is prohibited in detaining the felon. Other statutes apply to any crime not just felonies, some require the crime to have been witnessed by the arresting citizen, some don't. In any case you can and likely will be sued for false arrest or illegal detention/imprisonment or other various wordings used.

-Scott-
 

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I would have to agree with mchasal
One thing I have to disagree with is that I would not, nor would I have anyone else, approach him to cuff him or get his ID.
I have watched police training videos showing inmates practicing coming out of various "take down" positions and attacking the guy playing cop, they practice this daily and are very good at it. They practice fighting with and without various weapons, this isn't a game these guys are practicing to kill someone. Securing a person is a very dangerous activity and unless you are trained to do it I strongly suggest you DO NOT attempt it. If you ever watch “COPS” or “LAPD” you will see that the cops never approach a suspect for cuffing/searching without backup, usually several other cops with their weapons drawn. You would have to check your state’s laws but some allow shooting a fleeing felon IF you reasonably fear the escape will endanger other people, but even if covered by law expect a **** storm if you shoot some innocent little choirboy who ain’t never done nothing wrong in his whole life. Best bet would be try to get as good a description as you can, try to memorize his face, try to follow and see where he goes, direction of escape
 

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I certainly agree with most of what has been said. Disarm him and get him to lay on the ground. If he can be restrained by a couple people without any threats of physical violance, fine. The one big problem is standing over him with your gun drawn may very well get you shot by arriving police as they're not sure who you are and what you are about to do with a gun drawn on a person. Best thing to do is put your gun away and back away from the BG and if he wants to run, then he has a free trip out fo there. The threat to you has long since been over.
 

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OK, I have a different take, but I usually get these tactical exercises wrong. How do I get the drop on an armed robber with his gun already drawn? Man that sounds pretty dangerous right there.
I realize there are a million variables in a situation like the one described, but I have trouble seeing many situations where I would draw on an armed opponent and not shoot.
If I believed that that the bad guy was truly an immediate life threatening threat then I would shoot him not tell to him freeze or something. If the guy was trying to get away I say let him go. If I do not believe he is going to kill me or someone else then I lay back and pray like crazy.
I carry a gun to protect my life or someone elses life. I am not an LEO. I have no obligation to intervene or protect property, so if I draw on an armed opponent then I am shooting. When I took the basic pistol course here in MA to get my permit and in subsequent concealed carry classes that I have taken it was stressed that the only time I can legally draw my gun is if I truly believe I am about to die. The law is not written exactly that way, but that pretty much sums it up. Other states may be different.
Regardless, from a tactical standpoint why would I draw on an armed opponent and not shoot? I ask the question sincerely not critically. I have stood in line at a cash register and played out the scenario in my mind. What if the guy ahead of me pulls out a gun and demands money? He is yelling, pointing the gun at the cashier and then at us folks in line. I don't know if he will shoot or not. If and when would I make a move? I know one thing, if I had to move, and could, I am shooting not talking. I am not holding anyone at gun point for the cops to arrive. In fact I hope the guy just runs like hell, works for me.
Like I said I usually get these tactical exercises wrong so feel free to show me how I am wrong, I'm used to it and I usually learn something. LOL!
 

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The Goose said:
Regardless, from a tactical standpoint why would I draw on an armed opponent and not shoot? I ask the question sincerely not critically.
The reason you would draw and not shoot is if your newly presented firearm convinces the BG to change his behaviour. You have to assess the situation and not just start shooting. If you draw and the BG turns tail and runs you should not fire or your bullets in his back will not bode well for you in court.

Mike
 

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This is straying a little from the starting scenario...that is, you've already drawn your gun and the bad guy hits the floor...blah blah blah. However, kinda pickin up with GOOSE on this, there are a lot of variables to determine whether or not you'd even present your firearm during an armed robbery.

My CCW class put us in a bank situation, with not a lot, but several customers, when a BG (just one) announces the holdup. Now, given some facts that most Bank Holdups these days don't involve anybody getting shot, you've got to think about 1) is your life in immediate risk 2) what are chances of third party getting shot if you do confront the BG....we opted for not pulling our weapon because his gun was not pointed at "me" threatening to kill, and two, because there were many others that might get hit with a stray shot, it was probably best to let this one take the money and run.

Having said that, that is a bank scenario....the local convenience store holdup is usually a more violent event...probably save this one for another scenario!!
 
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