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Discussion Starter #1
Miggy asked me to write this up as a possible situation for comment. He works in a strictly ''no gun'' hotel environment.

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In defiance of your employer's guidelines you keep your gun safely locked and hidden away in your car .... which is parked not far off in staff parking area.

You hear shots in the reception area and imagine there is perhaps a disgruntled former employee taking out his fustrations trying to kill your coworkers.

You are in a safe area and can get away without being seen or hurt. Having tho not actually eyeballed the scene - you can only speculate as to the actual events unfolding.

The question is: Would you go to your vehicle, retrieve your gun and return inside try to stop a probable madman? Let's assume that you have called 911 and help is on the way.
 

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Chris...

I think it would come down to how I felt about the people inside the hotel. If they were as close to me as say...most of the members of my first aid squad, then yes, I'm going back in. Technically we're not related, but we have the kind of bond that makes us family.

If it's a job, and I don't have anyone really close to me inside, then I'll probably stay out of it (as much as that would kill me to do...but from a legal standpoint it makes more sense...after all, you've escaped the violence, and now you're going to escalate the scene by going back in...

at least that's the way the gun grabber's mind will work...

just me 0.02.

--Jim
 

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P95Carry said:
You hear shots in the reception area and imagine there is perhaps a disgruntled former employee taking out his fustrations trying to kill your coworkers.

You are in a safe area and can get away without being seen or hurt. Having tho not actually eyeballed the scene - you can only speculate as to the actual events unfolding.

The question is: Would you go to your vehicle, retrieve your gun and return inside try to stop a probable madman? Let's assume that you have called 911 and help is on the way.
That's a tough call even if your company permits carry. You can't see what's going on, you have called police and they are responding. I think I might have the tendency to stay someplace where I can hopefully help to direct responding police rather than go in.

Reasoning, in short? 1. I really don't know the situation "inside", could be more than one shooter, I also don't know where he (or they) might be. 2. The cops arrive to a "shots fired" call and I'm standing there with my weapon out..... Again, could be real unhealthy for me. Just seems like the odds are real bad if you go in. Now, if I was armed and in there so I could see the situation................ Whole different ballgame!

Can't wait to hear what others think!!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
For myself - on initial consideration - I feel somehow I'd be duty-bound to return with gun. Not to necessarily engage but at least to sum up situation and maybe save lives if appropriate. First priority would be (assuming I came back in way I went out - unseen) to find a way to assess scene visually. That's a must.

If cops responding then we have to ask - how long? Chances are it will be some minutes, during which time much mahem could go down. Let's assume for now - one bad guy intent on taking out any staff he can see and maybe too, sufficiently cranked up to shoot at anything he can see.

If I saw that and could get a safe series of shots off at the BG - I would - as I'd be unable to simply observe folks being shot up. It would if you will be my moral duty - and to heck with consequences - tho some might say I should have stayed outside - but there again - that ain't helping anyone.

If cops turn up then naturally I am downing a gun and ready to be compliant.

I'll chew this over further.
 

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I work Security at the Las Vegas Hilton and have thought about this scenario many times. We are unarmed (due to corporate stupidity) and unfortunately my gun is in the trunk of my car in the employee parking area which is so far removed from the casino hotel area that by the time I got to my gun and returned it would either be over or Metro would be on the scene.

I have tried to explain the absurdity of this to the execs and they just don't care. I keep hoping that is this ever does happen it's the execs who are getting shot to pieces. :chairshot :rolleyes: :biggrin:
 

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I keep hoping that if this ever does happen it's the execs who are getting shot to pieces.
That Bob at least would seem some sorta justice tho of course so logically and potentially avoidable.

Pity it seems they have no trust for their employees. Occurs to me too actually - maybe those very exec's consider themselves ''special'' enough that they might just carry themselves - if not then they are blind to their own safety.
 

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I'm with rstickle on this one.

I'm not the kind of person to turn a blind eye to people in need, but I must also look out for my own safety. A shooting in a building full of people and rooms can be confusing; I don't want to be mistaken for being the shooter by the police or another carry permit holder. I learned basic room-clearing techniques, but doing it by myself in a hotel with doors and rooms everywhere and people running about in panic is incredibly scary and dangerous. Having a carry permit is not the equivalent of a police badge, and we've got to be very careful. I'll also admit that my recent engagement put things into a whole new perspective for me, in that I'm not living just for myself.
 

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Man, talk about a hard call! Where do you guys come up with this stuff? I'm gonna have nightmares again tonight.
 

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I'm not positive how I would react in this one until it actually happened. I would probably get my gun and go back to the fourth floor where many of my staff and friends have offices and see what the situation is there. I would be hard pressed to stay in the parking garage knowing that many of the people I have worked with for many years were in danger. When it was all over, if I had to use or uncover my gun, I would almost surely lose my job for being armed in a government building.
 

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Evade and Escape. If I can get out safely I would just get in my car and head for nearest phone. Say you do get your pistol and shoot it out with guy, and stop his forward motion forever, but in the process the guy gets a couple of your co-workers. Then now you will face whatever comes next, possibly prison because you were free and could have called but you decide to engage the guy or gal. The chips are down in your favor in my opinion and you are up the river dude, but hey good shootin..
 

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you are not PD, and should not even try to clear a building on your own. SWAT uses a group for a reason. Too many areas to cover with 1 or even 2 people.
 

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Blue,
I think you misread.
P95Carry said:
The question is: Would you go to your vehicle, retrieve your gun and return inside try to stop a probable madman? Let's assume that you have called 911 and help is on the way.

911 has already been contacted and units are responding. Now, most of my county is covered only by NJSP. If it were legal for me to store a firearm in the car, there would be one there. I've known it to take 15 minutes + for a a single trooper to arrive on scene. What's going to happen in that 15 minutes?

The question is, can you contain and control the situation by yourself and subdue the BG, and then manage to avoid getting shot by the hyped up PD when they come banging in the doors?

--Jim
 

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The clear issue here is intervention. The tactical consensus is don't - end of discussion.

But the moral and conscience issue is far from so decisive. The decision each of us must make is would we rather put ourself at risk and try to save innocent lives, or save ourself and allow the slaughter of innocent life and live with that the rest of our life.

I know I couldn't bear living the rest of my life knowing I was better equipped and trained than anyone in there and did nothing. So my answer is, I'm going to do everything I can as tactically as I can, to stop the killing if I can, until the police get there.

I realize lot's can happen, but a lot's gonna happen if I do nothing.
 

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This is an unpleasant one. For me, the answer is clear, if unpleasant. No. It is the company's right to decide that its employees will be disarmed on company property, and the company has sole responsibility for the consequences. My first priority is to my family. If I have called 911, and have a safe avenue of retreat, then I have a duty to save myself. First, I owe it to my family to preserve myself. Second, I can't help anyone if I am dead. Third, no company that disarms its employees is worth dying for.
 

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It is nice to see I am pretty much in the same wavelenght with everybody.

Tangle said:
Man, talk about a hard call! Where do you guys come up with this stuff? I'm gonna have nightmares again tonight.
That I can answer easily. Just recently the hotel had to fire an employee. This person had a history of being verbally violent and confrontational although the reason for his firing was not related to his attitude. The SOP is for him to meet with his manager and the HR director, explain why was the decission taken and give him his walking papers. It is also SOP that a Security Officer to be nearby in case SHTF. For this guy we had two Officers present. The employee was terminated and escorted out without any problems. After that I got to think the "What If's" and that is how I got to give Tangle another nightmare. :biggrin:

I see that everybody pretty much has been thinking like me along the tactical/moral lines. This is what has been going through my head:

Pro: I have the means to stop the guy from killing innocent people (Keyword: Innocent). Some might be guests, some might be employees. Some I don't care much, some others are nice young folks with bright futures ahead. I wear an uniform so I have a good chance that the PD won't shoot my sorry butt if they see me armed. I now the lay of the hotel backwards and forwards which most employees do not so I have a tactical advantage on my avenues of approach and use of cover.

Cons: I will lose my job. I will probably end on the news as a Vigilante (Broward County is as anti-gun as D.C.) The bad guy may get lucky and get me a new hole somewhere where it hurts. Ditto for the PD if I happen to encounter some less than cool-minded officer. I might hit an innocent person. I might get sued by the family of the deceased bad guy. I might get prosecuted by the county and end up with a alternative lifestyle partner in jail.

And then comes the moral dilemma: If I don't do something, can I live with myself knowing that I could have?
 

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I recall the incident that happened at the Virgina law school a few years back: a guy shot a professor(s) and some students. Two students ran to their cars, retrieved their guns and confronted the madman. He immediately surrendered and dropped his gun and the killing ended.

Intervention, while extremely risky, doesn't always have a bad ending. And, granted, the "hero" can be made out to be anything but that. Sometimes it is easier to make decisions when it is impersonal, so let me up the ante if I may:

What if I, Tangle, was one of the ones in the hotel at risk of being shot, would you still do nothing?
 

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Tangle said:
I recall the incident that happened at the Virgina law school a few years back: a guy shot a professor(s) and some students. Two students ran to their cars, retrieved their guns and confronted the madman. He immediately surrendered and dropped his gun and the killing ended.

Intervention, while extremely risky, doesn't always have a bad ending. And, granted, the "hero" can be made out to be anything but that. Sometimes it is easier to make decisions when it is impersonal, so let me up the ante if I may:

What if I, Tangle, was one of the ones in the hotel at risk of being shot, would you still do nothing?
The Appalachian State incident. Yes. The two students, off-duty LEO's as I recall, exited the building, went to their trucks, retrieved their guns, remained outside and confronted the gunman on the front steps as he exited the building. The timing may have been such that they did not have an opportunity to re-enter the building before the gunman emerged. IIRC, the gunman was also out of ammo.

Once can always add what-if's (what if I'm wearing a uniform, what if my family is at risk, what if a good friend's life was on the line) that will alter one's response to the scenario, invalidating prior responses and compromising the value of the exercise. It seems to me that the real question for those of us who would leave is "what would it take for us to go back into the building?"

The nature of one's job must be factored in. If one is a security guard, that is very different from a backoffice accounting clerk, housekeeper, or maintenance engineer, with a whole different duty to act and expectation of service. It would also depend on what I know about the corporate culture. If the company were like Conoco or Williams, and likely to do their best to ruin my life and my family's future, however righteous my defense, then I would be less inclined to take an unnecessary and unappreciated personal risk.

Family is a big factor, too. If I have no dependents, my response is going to be different than if I have a family to think about. If I weren't being paid to put my life on the line, I would have to be saving a very special friend, and I would have to think hard, before I risked leaving my children fatherless and my wife a widow with no income.

Regardless, the act of leaving the building, retrieving a gun, and re-entering a building, not knowing what variables have changed while you were away, is a very dangerous move, no matter how well you know the place. The shooting is already underway before I leave and likely complete by the time I return. If I felt the need to return, I don't know if I would enter the building or not, unless I were trained to clear the premises. I'd probably take up a defended position, outside, and try to prevent the shooter's escape, letting the police who are trained, equipped and qualified clear the building. If I felt the need to return, and the shooting was on-going, then I might be compelled to re-enter the building and attempt to stop the attack.
 

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Tangle said:
I recall the incident that happened at the Virgina law school a few years back: a guy shot a professor(s) and some students. Two students ran to their cars, retrieved their guns and confronted the madman. He immediately surrendered and dropped his gun and the killing ended.
This is different from the scene given here. The two "students" SAW what was happening, and knew the layout. The first message in this thread says:
You hear shots in the reception area and imagine there is perhaps a disgruntled former employee taking out his fustrations trying to kill your coworkers.
WHile you might know the layout, you have NO idea of what is really going on.

The classroom situation deserves a completely different assessment, and I would be more prone to go back into that situation, since I have more information.
 

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rstickle,
My point was that intervention can have a good ending, not that it was a similar situation, but you make a good point.
 
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