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If a BG has the drop on you, I think it's import to wait until he has his attention off you before drawing on him. That opportunity might not come without you creating a distraction; for example he might have the drop on you and pat you down with focused attention and take your gun(s). Maybe he even has an accomplice also watching you.

What you need is a distraction, and a Snickers ain't gonna help with that. What are the best methods do you think, of creating a good distraction? I've heard of throwing your wallet on the floor. Or looking over the BGs shoulder and basically doing a "look over there!" Do you have any plans to create a distraction, or do you plan to just let it unfold and go with the flow of whatever opportunity you get?
 

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The distraction is, now you have it, now you don't. Blink and it's no longer yours.

No more to it than that, if he opts to get within range.

If he has the good sense to stay out of disarm range and avoid distractions, it's probably best to pay the man.
 

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You could fake a heart attack! Seriously grab your chest and fall to the ground.
Does that get the muzzle off your body?
Does it reduce the risk of being shot, even inadvertently because the muzzle hasn't been controlled and it's still pointed at you?
Would that leave your fate to a man who has already shown a propensity for violence?
Can one attain their own firearm from it's secreted location while writhing on the ground as fast or faster than standing?
Is there a chance by falling down, the vics weapon is exposed raising the risk of being shot?

There are asked for discussion purposes and consideration
 

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Action beats reaction, even IF/When the gun is loaded. Just need a little knowledge and not shy from doing whatever it takes to get the damned muzzle off your body. The follow up to this would have had the leo eating the muzzle himself. The reason this works is simple. In the editor, from the initiation to go for the gun till my hand touches it is .145 seconds. The best reactions times are no less than .200 and usually in the .250 second range. Action beats reaction. By the time many will think about what to do, it's already done.

I believe distractions are a waste of valuable time. That time being the duration of being muzzled and within range to just take it from them. They are robbing you through intimidation. Their hesitation to shoot immediately and take it from your dead body is two fold. They don't want the attention a shot draws to them, they really don't want to shoot you if they are holding you at gun point.

 

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The distraction is, now you have it, now you don't. Blink and it's no longer yours.

Every situation is different, but is this the preferred way now, to turn the gun inward?
I was taught to turn it outward, against the way the trigger finger bends. That it was easier to disarm that way due to the pain of his fingers being bent backwards. This was a right handed perp and right handed good guy. At least my partner and I were. I don't recall any instructions for lefties or anything changing in that regards, but it was a long time ago. Grab cylinder with right hand, barrel with left, bend. If it was a semi use the right hand to push the slide back.

I can see the advantages of the way you demonstrated in that the gun points at the perp immediately. I'm trying to notice body positioning but don't see an advantage or disadvantage with either method. Well, maybe. If you turn the gun outward you sidestep the bad guy and get further away from his other hand. That could be a plus.

But like I said, the situation will dictate.

Good video. Thanks for posting and getting my brain working :smile:
 

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Does that get the muzzle off your body?
Does it reduce the risk of being shot, even inadvertently because the muzzle hasn't been controlled and it's still pointed at you?
Would that leave your fate to a man who has already shown a propensity for violence?
Can one attain their own firearm from it's secreted location while writhing on the ground as fast or faster than standing?
Is there a chance by falling down, the vics weapon is exposed raising the risk of being shot?

There are asked for discussion purposes and consideration
Definitely maybe on all of the above.
Who knows and every situation is different. I don't have the training to disarm the perp. I'll be the first to tell you that. But if I can create a distraction and clear leather I like my chances a lot better than just being a sitting duck.

I would much rather the distraction come from some place other than me. That may or may not present itself.

My number one goal is to protect my family first and me second. I'll do whatever I feel is necessary in the given situation to get that done.

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Definitely maybe on all of the above.
Who knows and every situation is different. I don't have the training to disarm the perp. I'll be the first to tell you that. But if I can create a distraction and clear leather I like my chances a lot better than just being a sitting duck.

I would much rather the distraction come from some place other than me. That may or may not present itself.

My number one goal is to protect my family first and me second. I'll do whatever I feel is necessary in the given situation to get that done.

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Learning and mastering a few simple disarm/H2H techniques is much easier than learning to win at drawing against the drop. Brownie teaches several of his techniques in less than five minutes, and they work.
 

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Definitely maybe on all of the above.
Who knows and every situation is different. I don't have the training to disarm the perp. I'll be the first to tell you that. But if I can create a distraction and clear leather I like my chances a lot better than just being a sitting duck.

I would much rather the distraction come from some place other than me. That may or may not present itself.

My number one goal is to protect my family first and me second. I'll do whatever I feel is necessary in the given situation to get that done.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
Never too late to pick that skill up from someone who can pass the knowledge. :hand10:
 

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Learning and mastering a few simple disarm/H2H techniques is much easier than learning to win at drawing against the drop. Brownie teaches several of his techniques in less than five minutes, and they work.
I learned myself in the same time from the mentors at SIONICS in 80. There's no reason this needs to be anything considered too difficult for the average carrier.
 

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PA, I've been trained in many methodologies of disarms, the same as you describe above as well. Here's where I'm at with it, and it comes once again from the mentors at SIONICS counter terr training and not one of the gun courses.

Moving as I did, to their outside and collapsing their wrist inward provides the following:
Takes advantage of the way the elbow works, they can't pull back and bend the elbow to shoot you if you miss the initial contact
If there's a struggle once the gun is grabbed, the person on the outside has advantage.

It also segways very well into the h2h/defensive edged weapons principles of getting to the outside for advantage unless forced to go inside.,
 

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Then what?
Come up guns a blazing!


Seriously faking a heart attack might not be the best idea. You also might not just get the opportunity to disarm the guy. Who knows? No matter what kind of training you have you don't know what you will do untill you are actually in the situation.
It's easy to say that you would do a tactical back flip and disarm the guy. Saying it and doing it in real life are two completely different things.

I also realize that your training is way better than mine. You can probably do things that I can't because of lack of training. I would just have to do the best I could with the tools I have available. My lack of training in disarms leads me to believe my best bet would be getting my firearm in play if I didn't think complying would get me home safe.

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Come up guns a blazing!


Seriously faking a heart attack might not be the best idea. You also might not just get the opportunity to disarm the guy. Who knows? No matter what kind of training you have you don't know what you will do untill you are actually in the situation.
It's easy to say that you would do a tactical back flip and disarm the guy. Saying it and doing it in real life are two completely different things.

I also realize that your training is way better than mine. You can probably do things that I can't because of lack of training. I would just have to do the best I could with the tools I have available. My lack of training in disarms leads me to believe my best bet would be getting my firearm in play if I didn't think complying would get me home safe.

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That's not exactly true, in my experience. Even mental rehearsals and discussions like this one which get us thinking give us a bit more of an edge when we find ourselves in actual situations.
Watch the beginning of Brownie's video, when he gets off the line before the bg can pull the trigger. He moved in about a tenth of a second. My personal best reaction time is .12 seconds. The actor wins that contest every time. When one understands simple givens, good choices are more readily available.
 

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If a BG has the drop on you, I think it's import to wait until he has his attention off you before drawing on him. That opportunity might not come without you creating a distraction; for example he might have the drop on you and pat you down with focused attention and take your gun(s). Maybe he even has an accomplice also watching you.

What you need is a distraction, and a Snickers ain't gonna help with that. What are the best methods do you think, of creating a good distraction? I've heard of throwing your wallet on the floor. Or looking over the BGs shoulder and basically doing a "look over there!" Do you have any plans to create a distraction, or do you plan to just let it unfold and go with the flow of whatever opportunity you get?
How bout if I poop my pants? I bet the stink would distract them
 

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Come up guns a blazing!


Seriously faking a heart attack might not be the best idea. You also might not just get the opportunity to disarm the guy. Who knows? No matter what kind of training you have you don't know what you will do untill you are actually in the situation.
It's easy to say that you would do a tactical back flip and disarm the guy. Saying it and doing it in real life are two completely different things.

I also realize that your training is way better than mine. You can probably do things that I can't because of lack of training. I would just have to do the best I could with the tools I have available. My lack of training in disarms leads me to believe my best bet would be getting my firearm in play if I didn't think complying would get me home safe.

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That's a great post and mindset Houston.

I would just have to do the best I could with the tools I have available. My lack of training in disarms leads me to believe my best bet would be getting my firearm in play if I didn't think complying would get me home safe.

Something everyone should consider and have forethought where their abilities and best chances as the scenario presents.

Saying it and doing it in real life are two completely different things.

In my own case, the two actual street disarms came after the training and a few years of practice as in the demos. In one scenario, the gun wasn't being brought to bear toward me, but a dep sheriff standing next to me in the guys doorway. I startled the dep as much as the guy at the door, there was no time to do anything but snatch the gun out of his hand [ a little 25 semi auto like a jennings no less ]. The years of training to take them from various angles presented on my body as seen in one of the vids up here and from various distances out to what many would consider out of disarm range allowed the confidence to react, not hesitate. In this case, I'm confident he'd have pulled the trigger, there was no time to think about it. The training brings more enlightenment as to what one's options are. More options are better.
 

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PA, I've been trained in many methodologies of disarms, the same as you describe above as well. Here's where I'm at with it, and it comes once again from the mentors at SIONICS counter terr training and not one of the gun courses.

Moving as I did, to their outside and collapsing their wrist inward provides the following:
Takes advantage of the way the elbow works, they can't pull back and bend the elbow to shoot you if you miss the initial contact
If there's a struggle once the gun is grabbed, the person on the outside has advantage.

It also segways very well into the h2h/defensive edged weapons principles of getting to the outside for advantage unless forced to go inside.,
I will say that your way puts you to the outside more quickly, but then you step back inside as you bend the arm in. That puts you closer to his other hand if he chooses to do something himself. You've got both hands occupied trying to get his gun away in a position where it's easier for him to retain his grip and pull you closer.

Like I said, I'm just trying to see the advantage over the way I was taught. Ultimately, not practicing this stuff on even an irregular basis, if the time comes I know I'll use the method I was first taught.
Even if you use your left hand like you show, grabbing the barrel with your right hand and bending outward will keep you on the outside and work the bad guys hand in a way it doesn't want to bend. No?
 

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PA, I've been trained in many methodologies of disarms, the same as you describe above as well. Here's where I'm at with it, and it comes once again from the mentors at SIONICS counter terr training and not one of the gun courses.

Moving as I did, to their outside and collapsing their wrist inward provides the following:
Takes advantage of the way the elbow works, they can't pull back and bend the elbow to shoot you if you miss the initial contact
If there's a struggle once the gun is grabbed, the person on the outside has advantage.

It also segways very well into the h2h/defensive edged weapons principles of getting to the outside for advantage unless forced to go inside.,
PA, here's Matt trying to struggle to maintain possession of the firearm. Notice I'm not dancing around, nearly standing in place. Once the struggle is attempted, it's too late, the gun and muzzle are under control and through the leverage applied, he collapses to the ground. In the real world, I'd have not been smiling or helping him back to his feet. Matt, 7677 and I had a great day together training and sharing information with a 4th leo who was a CAR instructor

There's a lot of ways to skin this cat, many work quite well and like you, I'm not going to let them take their best shot at close range. :bier:

 

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PA, here's Matt trying to struggle to maintain possession of the firearm. Notice I'm not dancing around, nearly standing in place. Once the struggle is attempted, it's too late, the gun and muzzle are under control and through the leverage applied, he collapses to the ground. In the real world, I'd have not been smiling or helping him back to his feet. Matt, 7677 and I had a great day together training and sharing information with a 4th leo who was a CAR instructor :bier:

OK. I can see it a little better now.
I'm not seeing why bending the wrist in instead of out is better, but doing it "at speed" proved your method a little more clearly.
 
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