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Discussion Starter #1
In an effort to put us on the same level...Look at this with the following interprutation:
-You must feel as if your life or others is in danger
-You must attempt to avoid the danger

You are at your local pizzeria for dinner. Two armed males enter and force all the employees and patrons down. They proceed to rob the store and take cash, cell phones, jewelry etc. from the patrons.

BGs have guns but do not fire any shots. After taking cash and valuable BGs run.

Would you cooperate w/the BGs or act against them if/when the opportunity presented itself?
 

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Since I'm no longer in Law Enforcement and if I didn't feel my life or my familys life was in danger, I would comply. They start shooting and I start shooting.
 

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When anyone starts trying to force me to do anything at gun point I am in danger.
How would I know they going to run after taking cash and valuables?
Not knowing the outcome before the outcome I would determine the outcome myself when the opportunity presented itself.
 

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You realize that they will find your pistol while you are helplessly laying on the floor...what then?
When patrons are being forced to the floor, I hope the BG(s) is/are distracted for but a moment...:blink::uzi:

Actually, BG(s) upon entering with a gun showing is enough of a threat...:yup:
 

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well, it was the part about "taking watches, jewelry, etc" off patrons that caught me too. At that point, it puts into a new light to me because I have a gun on me and do not want it in their hands. Second, I've known of too many cases where people who then marched into the back and / or freezer and shot in the head.

If they rob the place and leave everyone else alone, I might not react... past that however, it to me becomes more dicey.
 

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You are at your local pizzeria for dinner. Two armed males enter and force all the employees and patrons down.
They are a threat, my life is in danger. There is no way of knowing if they are just going to rob the place and leave, or rob it and leave no witnesses.

At the first opportunity I will do what is necessary to eliminate the threat to my safety.
 

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Since I'm no longer in Law Enforcement and if I didn't feel my life or my familys life was in danger, I would comply. They start shooting and I start shooting.
What if they decide to "start shooting" with the gun pointed at your own head?
 

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They are a threat, my life is in danger. There is no way of knowing if they are just going to rob the place and leave, or rob it and leave no witnesses.

At the first opportunity I will do what is necessary to eliminate the threat to my safety.
+1 on this
 

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i dont want to be the first one getting shot in this experiment...if they rifle the register and walk away i'm counting my blessings and hopefully nobody got hurt...if there is a settling in and patrons are on the list of robberies i dont want them anywhere near me...there are a lot of variables to consider including clear shooting lanes and whats going to happen if it turns into a gunfight...the chances against several armed assailants are poor unless youve got clear shots and the entire restaurant isnt going to be lit up...if i am being approached and i think my gun is going to be exposed then i want it to be a surprise that begins with me squeezing the bang switch on a carefully executed man stopping shot....

my biggest concern is the other patrons and where its going...lots of things to think about in a short amount of time...until youre in it you wont know which direction youre going to take it in...a cowboy might get everyone in the restaurant killed...someone who uses care and surprise wisely may be able to lower the risk of innocent casualty....

a pizza parlor is genaerllay a small space and that can give you opportunity for multiple takedowns...at the same time it means few places for people to hide in the event it turns into the 4th of july...there are a lot of responsibilties to consider...
 

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They invited me to dance so I will oblige with instant, overwhelming force at the first practicable moment. There is no guarantee the outcome will be in my favor, but that would be true even if I chose to not to respond.
 

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Protect my family. In and out, stay down and cover my family. If they decide to sit around harrassing people, I would most likely end them. edit: missed the part about robbing patrons. I would draw when they were occupied, and shoot them when the opportunity presented itself, if I couldn't get away without facing them.
 

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+1

Double Tap each of them....:comeandgetsome:
No, no...'boarding house rules'...:yup::blink::yup::blink:
No one gets a 'second helping' until everyone has had their 'first'.:comeandgetsome::image035:
 

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BGs have guns but do not fire any shots. After taking cash and valuable BGs run.
If I knew that this was what was going to happen, naturally I would comply! However...

If at any time I believe I am in imminent danger of severe bodily harm or death, I am not going to lay down and be shot!

Hint: When the BGs come in with guns drawn... your life is in danger! :ahhhhh:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I agree w/most of what's been said. I prolly should have left off the BGs run and don't fire a shot. That's not something that would be known til after the fact.

This scenario is based upon a local news story. I was not actually put in this position. But when I heard the news report it triggered some thoughts.

In this case, everyone appeared to comply (No information about any CCW patrons or not. I'm guessing not because it would not be legal to carry here - Class D liquor permit) and no one was physically harmed. I guess I looked at from 2 ways. 1) If I (you) draw, be prepared to shoot. So, would shooting (at) the BG be "justified"? I guess if I was put in the position I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
2) If I did draw, would are the chances of injury/harm to me or others increased or decreased. Like you guys say, where are the BGs, where are the other patrons, how many BGs, etc.

Knowing the outcome it's easy to say giving up my crappy cell phone is the way to go to avoid any risks. Just made me think.

Thanks guys!
 

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I'm all for stopping criminals, but there's a time and place for everything. Whether I took any specific steps to terminate the threat right then would depend on the particular circumstances, as always.


-You must feel as if your life or others is in danger
-You must attempt to avoid the danger
That goes for any and every instance of forced compliance, IMO, particularly when lethal weapons are in play.

Of course, as some have said, wouldn't it be great to know what was going to happen? Avoiding the danger of being killed would be easy, then. But, that's fantasy. Can't know what karma doesn't reveal, until it's revealed. Until then, you do the best you can with the knowledge and perception of chances as you're able.

When anyone starts trying to force me to do anything at gun point I am in danger.
Yup.


Not knowing the outcome before the outcome I would determine the outcome myself when the opportunity presented itself.
That's pretty much it.

If there are a number of patrons in the store and only two visible felons, it's highly likely that they'd eject as soon as obtaining the goods. However, there are plenty of examples of crimes where the felons then decide to terminate everyone ... whether for kicks, for penalty of having "dissed" them or making things difficult for them, or simply to silence witnesses.

But it would depend on the specific circumstances and flow of the situation, for me.

Two felons can be taken out. But it wouldn't be easy.

There could be any number of factors that could complicate things and kill the probability of surviving:

  • They could have armor;
  • They could be skilled at moving fast like cats, or far more practiced than I;
  • They could have other weapons than simply pistols;
  • A full-auto SBR could be devastating at close quarters;
  • A semi-auto 12ga shotgun with drum wouldn't be something I'd want to test my luck against. Pistols, perhaps. But, against a pair of these? Not likely.
  • They could take down the lights and have low-light vision devices during the crime.
  • One family member could be there, or the whole family. Would I be willing to risk failure and then termination of my whole family? Nope.

That all being said, I'd be paying attention. The moment when chances were that nobody was going to make it out alive (ie, being herded to the back), it's time to act.
 

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They invited me to dance so I will oblige with instant, overwhelming force at the first practicable moment. There is no guarantee the outcome will be in my favor, but that would be true even if I chose to not to respond.
Yep!!!^^^^^^^^

+1

Double Tap each of them....:comeandgetsome:
No, no...'boarding house rules'...:yup::blink::yup::blink:
No one get a 'second helping' until everyone has had their 'first'.:comeandgetsome::image035:
Hlilarious!!^^^^^^^



i dont want to be the first one getting shot in this experiment...if they rifle the register and walk away i'm counting my blessings and hopefully nobody got hurt...if there is a settling in and patrons are on the list of robberies i dont want them anywhere near me...there are a lot of variables to consider including clear shooting lanes and whats going to happen if it turns into a gunfight...the chances against several armed assailants are poor unless youve got clear shots and the entire restaurant isnt going to be lit up...if i am being approached and i think my gun is going to be exposed then i want it to be a surprise that begins with me squeezing the bang switch on a carefully executed man stopping shot.... Bladenbullet

I'm in bladenbullet's camp on this one,

Thumper Hit it real good too!!

If its startin to look like a death camp march I'm going down swinging



"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent
 

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Too many people have no respect for life anymore,, If you were sure they would leave with the loot, Yea let them go,, When you bring watchs and rings and wallets into the mix, Thats different,,They will search then the problem gets worse,, The $64000.00 question is,, Will they let anyone live? Distraction and hopefully a few well placed shots, would end this nightmare.
 

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Put me in the category of shooting the guy who presents a gun and by that alone threatens my life. I'm not psychic and he may very well be the next Leon "Pistol Pete" Dorsey who had no remorse whatsoever and even said he killed them "Cuz that's how I roll"

So close to home it aint funny, literally blocks away when it happened...


Man who killed Blockbuster employees blames victims, denies remorse | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News

His own words.
'SOULJA' Leon Dorsey -Texas Death Row
 
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