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Discussion Starter #1
I won't reveal the circumstances or identities here and I've changed the comments a little to protect the not so innocent. This was actually a series of PMs.

It started right about here. The other party has just bought their first gun ever.

Euclidean said:
The most important thing to do at this point is have someone show you what to do with that thing and how to use it. Find the best local facility you can and try to see if they facilitate any sort of class at all and take it.

Once you can consistently put it in the black at medium combat distances without really trying too hard, you should look into CCW permits. It's great to have a gun for self defense, but the problem is even when you do improve your skills with it, it does you no good if you're unarmed.
Thick Headed said:
Well I don't actually want to carry this thing around with me. I'm not some inbred Klan loving redneck without a cent to my name. I don't want to be one of those gun people.
Euclidean said:
Seriously man, you're liable to get your butt whipped saying something like that. That's about like saying you don't want to be one of those toaster people. Damn those toaster people. They cause fires and burn bread that could be used to feed starving African children.
Thick Headed said:
Yeah but at least the toaster people leave their toasters at home where they belong.
Euclidean said:
Look if you're not comfortable with the idea of carrying a firearm on your person for your own defense, that's fine, but you have no right criticizing the choices of others when it comes to personal safety. You won't find a single one of those "gun people" who is going to tell you that you have no right to decide not to carry a firearm.
Thick Headed said:
Well you have to realize most of these people aren't like you. You have a permit to do it and some common sense not to shoot somebody just because they cut you off in traffic. You can't let just anyone go out there with a gun in public.
Euclidean said:
Look I realize that a significant portion of the human race is composed of incredibly stupid people and I'm sure any population of people contains a few bad eggs, but you're talking like I'm some kind of trained government agent or something. I'm a freakin' high school math teacher 90% of the time!

You've got to let people live their lives so you can live yours. I understand the implications and ramifications of personal firearm carry and there are some downsides to it, but I choose to do it anyway. I know you drink Crown Royal on the weekends. You know the downsides but you choose to do that anyway. Everything good in life comes at a steep price.

It would be ideal if there was some means by which one could reliably screen all people and determine pre emptively exactly what they could and could not be trusted with, but as long as there is free will to choose between right and wrong, that's impossible. I guess if we could somehow tap the intelligence of God we could manage that, but I don't think that's going to happen.

More than that, when you add any kind of screening process at all to who can legally own or carry a firearm, you are playing with innocent people's lives and personal safety which is highly unethical. I think you're really underestimating the degree to which people who carry firearms for personal defense consider all the issues and ramifications of what they're doing.
Thick Headed said:
Well let's see if you still feel that way when some inbred hillbilly shoots you for the $10 in your pocket. It would double his life savings.
Euclidean said:
Okay let's see here... you're probably assuming gunowners/concealed weapons carriers are:

-White, possibly white supremacist
-Male
-Poor
-Uneducated
-Christian
-Politically conservative

Let me tell you what, that's a damn lie perpetuated by a biased hypocritical media that takes pains to show the diversity of say the Democratic Party, but will go to equally great lengths to paint a negative stereotype of the American rifleman.

The only reason most gunowners might be white is because most people in a given area are white sometimes. Go where most people are black and most gunowners are black. I personally have met gun toters of every conceivable color besides green and purple.

Also, I've never met such a demographic of people who are so indifferent to race. See these people tend to have things called jobs, which means they don't have time to worry about stupid crap like that. They just don't give a flying piece of crap what color someone is for the most part. Look if 10% of the general population are rascist bastards than so is 10% of the gun owning population. And by the way, rascist bastards come in other colors besides white.

One in three American women owns a gun.

If you were to judge gunowners by me you might think they're all poor, but you'd be so wrong. The most dedicated concealed weapons permit holders I've ever met are people with considerable financial means. Go to a gun show and watch the cash fly around. It's amazing. If you made $50,000 a year you'd still be poorer than a huge portion of these "gun people".

What's funny though is that rich or poor, these people all tend to agree on the most important things even if they quibble about minor points.

I've known several medical doctors, engineers, lawyers, and lots of white collar types who are "gun people". Sure I've also known guys who mix paint and fix appliances for a living who are "gun people", but what the hell is wrong with mixing paint? The people in Hollyweird should aspire to have a skill so useful as being able to mix paint or cook a hamburger.

Gunowners are Christian, Agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Wiccan, Mormon, Pagan, and all sorts of weird stuff you've never heard of. They're Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Independents, and every other party or political persuasion... even some hard core left wing people who I otherwise think are full of it have the sense to realize what the 2A means. Some have LEO and military experience, but many do not. Heck, some "gun people" are as queer as $2 bill.

What's funny to me is that if you were to have a such a collection of people with anything else in common, they'd be heralded and showered with accolades for their diversity and cultural tolerance. But because the thing they all have in common is arming themselves for personal defense, you never hear about this.

Oh and by the way, owning a gun isn't the same as being one of the "gun people" as you have already observed. I've figured that out by now. If being a "gun person" puts me in the same boat as milliona of other people, then so be it. I'll stand and be counted.

Don't turn into the worst kind of gun owner, the kind that thinks they're special and good and deserving while other's aren't, and that only their perceptions and needs should be considered.
I had to stop. But it made me mad.

It feels good to rant early in the morning.
 

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Just wait for Thick Headed to get his head handed to him by some street punk(s).

You can say "I told you so" while he's in the hospital. I would.
 

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Hmmmm, sounds like a person that used to be over on TFL but got booted for personal attacks. Wonder if it's the same person?

Heck, gun people are more diverse than the media/gun banners will admit. I love to go to the indoor range here when they are having a class just to view the people there. I extremly like it when someone attends that is non-white and/or a woman, shows that more and more are getting into the RKBA's and maybe they can get others to join in also. I go out of my way to try to introduce non-white, non-male's, non-hetro's to the RKBA because if anyone needs to take the responsibility to protect themselves, they do. I'm not blind and I'm not stupid, racism/sexism/hatism is alive and well in our world and most likely will be until the end of time.

And this "Thick Headed" is actually doing what he says that we do, stereotyping a group of people in a derogatory way. So he's (she's?) showing their own hate and -ism which is directed toward those that are gun people.

And has elitism, as in, I should have a gun but others shouldn't unless I say so. I've been told by some on some boards that they thought that I shouldn't be able to own/carry guns because they didn't like me or that I seemed "unstable" to them. I asked why is it that you fight and enjoy the 2nd but want to take it from me? They say that they "feel" that I would be the one to go off and do something stupid. I say, well, everyone could "go off" and do something stupid, it's all hard wired into us as humans, but until it happens then all should have their rights, don't you agree?

"Gun People" can be just as bad, or worse than the anti's themselves against their own. Sometimes the people that you're fighting right next too are the ones that will stab you in the back faster than the anti's you're fighting ever will. Thick Headed, as well as some others, fall into this catagory but they still hang around so they can impose their "feelings" on others.

Wayne

*sorry, turned into a bit of a rant.
 

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Euc - good attempt to remedy the logic deficit but - beating head on brick wall with most of these types.

They mostly I think enjoy yanking gunny chains but for sure - all deserve at least one experience where had they been carrying they just might have come out unscathed.

They are the ones who should wear the ''I am unarmed'' notice on their T shirts!!
 

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Euclidean,

First of all, I must say I'm impressed with your ability to stay rational, and express yourslef clearly, in the face of almost deliberate provocation. I'd have been tempted to simply tell him to quit stereotyping - and leave me the heck alone. Instead, you "stayed in the fight" and (in my opinion), prevailed. So -sometimes walking away isn't the best response; I'll remember that.

I have to add that one can look up (at least in Texas, on the DPS web site) the number of Conealed Handgun Licences revoked, for what cause, and the number of licencees arrested - versus the general public. The numbers are clear - people with CHLs are dramatically less prone to violence / arrest than the general public.

It may indeed be true that "a significant portion of the human race is composed of incredibly stupid people" - but stupid is not the same as evil or irresponsible. Most people might have trouble achieving a passing grade in your math class, but that does not make them prone to violence.

This fellow seems to think that "more guns on the street" means more gunfights - the same bs that started when Florida went "Shall Issue" in 1987, and was demonstrated to be incorrect.

This is getting too long. Good job, hang in there.

Regards,
Andrew
 

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Euclidean

You certainly DO "fight the good fight" for all of us!
I...(for one) really appreciate it!
I'm being very serious when I tell you that.
 

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Quite frankly, I wonder how people can believe it is important to own a gun for personal protection in their home, but not believe they need it elsewhere. IMHO my home IS the place that I am the most safe, so it follows that when I go less safe places I need that gun more, not less. Am I missing something?
No, I think "Thick Headed" is.....
 

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Euc,

Nice job.

I tend to think that most people who don't trust others generally are not trustworthy themselves. It's probably a blow to Thick Headed's ego that he can't handle the responsibility that we have accepted.

SSKC
 

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Toaster people, thats funny stuff.


Some people just don't get it I guess, and it will take a life changing(or life taking) situaition to make them think otherwise.
 

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Ok Euc, here goes I never do this but here is a brief resume to help you prove a point to this guy:

Former USAF Instructor
Disabled Veteran
Been a little bit of everywhere for Uncle Sam, standing on the wall while many slept.
Married happily, first child on the way, and I am just too excited
Professional Counselor - working with teens and youths who suffer from behavioral issues such as ADD, Sexual Abuse etc.
Cub Scout Leader.
CCW holder and can shoot anything uncle sam trained me on and then some.
Son of a Vietnam Veteran and Grandson of WWII Veteran
African American.
:cool:
 

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I guess the fact that I grew up hunting and shooting, own a small number of rifles, shotguns and hanguns, hold a legal handgun carry permit, carry my weapon everywhere I legally can and take the protection of myself and family seriously overshadow:

- 5+ years I spent in college. The "Best in Show" Award I won at the student Art show while earning degrees in Art AND History while maintaining a 3.2 GPA and a job.

- Growing up Catholic but dating girls who were everything from Baptist to Jewish to Buddhist, etc. mostly because I found them extremely interesting people.

- The several years I worked for State Government as a Cadd Technician (I was sitting at my desk working an Interstate bridge when the WTC was attacked). It's just geometry, algebra, trig and physics ... no biggie :confused: .

- The fact that I enjoy shooting with women at the range (and watching them outshoot me - and on a regular basis :wink: ).

In all fairness to Thick Headed:

- I vote in EVERY election.

- My Father-in-law is a plumber :eek: . He owns his own business and put four kids through college at prestigious Universities (including my wife). My Mother-in-law earned her A.S. in Business Mgmt. a few years ago, graduating Magna Cum Laude ... but hey, he's just a lowly plumber ....

- I come from a long line of military men dating back to at LEAST WWII and I'm damned proud of every one of them.

- I think my Mom is the greatest woman on Earth.

- I'm still on my first marriage (to a wonderful woman). Going on 9 years now - how very un-urbanite of me!

Guess I'm one of those uneducated, ill-tempered, hillbilly rednecks huh?
Jack
 

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Let's add mine to the mix

Hispanic.
Single child (Precludes the interfamily sex comments)
Multilingual.
My first "serious" book was Brave New World at the age of 11 followed by Orwell's 1984.
Currently own over 5,000 books all of them read.
Web Designer in my days off (OK, not that good but I can code by hand)
20 years in the Music Business.
Currently in the Security/Hospitality business.
Raised in a country where guns are verbotten to the average Joe and lived with the true fear of unbridled criminal activity in a country that is in the top 5 for murders IN THE WORLD.
Built my business and had it turn to mush by the same people that keep telling me that guns are bad for me and shouldn't have. The same people also told me that capitalism is bad and I can't dispose of my real estate or income unless it is through their guidelines in which they keep 80% of it if they feel generous.
Survivor of countrywide riots due to the fact I was armed.
Seen the wrong end of more than one gun in the hands of a power-hungry and drunk third world cop. Lived on my own flesh the disgrace that an unchecked goverment can be.
 

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Sounds like Thick-Headed forms his opinions exclusively from watching Jerry Springer.

Since I was about 18, I have always owned firearms kept in the house or car for the principal reason of personal defense and have now extended to the exercise of my Concealed Weapon Permit (it's official name here in CO). That has been a constant in my life, but as you can see below, nothing else has. So I'm one of "those gun people".

Me:
-Caucasian male
-raised with a "mild" case of racism due to my parents in OK but learned how stupid and wrong it was when I grew up
-I have NO beliefs (I either know something or I don't know it)
-married since 1969
-have 2 sons (carpenter in HI, nuclear engineer in NY)
-BS degree in astronomy 1980
-amateur astronomer
-formerly played tournament chess
-former referee in adult soccer competitions
-formery done mountaineering and technical rock climbing
-ran 6785 miles
-played in US Tennis Association league tennis
-shot first IDPA match this month
-current profession is IBM Cobol programmer
-former burger flipper
-former automobile warranty claims clerk
-former oilfield cement pump truck operator
-former oilfield well flow-test analyst
-former repairer of mechanical cash registers
-former Certified Safety Professional
 

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Euc,

I'm sure Thick Headed knows at least one person who fits his profile. At this point he has shown what type of person he is, a fool. It is not worth your valuable time to communicate with him further.

-Scott-
 

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Euc,

I believe Scott has nailed it.
 

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I guess that I am what he was thinking of, not kkk crap but Southern:

-Caucasian male
-My Fathers only Son (true child)
-Grew up in a semi-racist home. Got over it. Found that everyone has the same blood flowing through their veins as I. Just look different but I like that.
-Office administrator (I call it being a file jockey)
-Prior Air Force
-Disabled Veteran (why I'm no longer Air Force)
-Will give anyone, everyone the time of day.

Now some "not" so obvious traits of a gun owner:

-Gay (non-practicing, other reasons)
-Was invited to join MENSA from the online test. Didn't carry through to have a member come to my home to give the written/oral test. No interest in them or their organization.

Traits that are stereotypical of gun owners:

-Drunkard (not alcoholic that I know but maybe ?).

I don't think that "thick headed" really knows what a gun person really is. Or even who people really are. We tend to put everyone into some sort of stereotype or judge them and then either get rid of them (if they have the power) or to demonize them. It's just so much easier to put people into a box and judge them, then to really try to understand them, as individuals.

Wayne
 

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From the above comments I believe we have a very strong American wall to withstand any of the worlds trash they wish to throw at us. Very impressive people all from all walks of life. We have quite a mix here of intense patriot Americans. We are fortunate indeed. Very proud to stand with them(I am a 20 year vet).
Richard
 

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Seeing as so many ''profiles'' been added, better put in my own simplified version - to prove how ''odd'' I am as a gunny!

Caucasian male.
Raised by good people. Some early mil' experience only.
First marriage - 1972 thru 1988, two very normal and shooting kids, with their own kids now.
Qualified as osteopath 1967 - practiced thru 1974 when ceased that due to own back problems.
Night station manager London radio station mid '74 thru end '74.
Short term filler job 6/12 - audio viual sales (yuk!)
Clinic Superintendent at old college 1975 thru 1977.
Started own business (engineering plus) 1977 and moved to SW (Devon County).
1992 - back to University.
1995 graduated B.Eng Systems 2.1 Hons.
Worked for self still - R&D and prototyping.
Slid more into web, data conversion and graphics scene
2000 - trying to be semi retired - moved over and married my beau ... 2 step kids.
To present time still pretending to be semi retired! - still web oriented matters part time.

Pretty wierd stuff eh - very ''far out'' and extreme thus making me a wierd gun nut:wink:
 

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Euc,
You've got a huge load of patience I lost a long time ago on people like that. There's only so much you can do before you realize you're wrestling a greased pig.

Betty
- a middle-class, 27 year-old, half-Asian, half-white, Yankee-born female with a Bachelor's in Graphic Design and Advertising, who moved to TN in the spring of 1991 and saw for the very first time round hay bales, and learned that her new neighbors are the most hard-working, honest, trustworthy, dependable people on the planet.
 
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