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Discussion Starter #1
For the anti gun brigade.......

1) - How do you propose to control the use of guns by criminals? Disarming the good guys is not the solution.

2) - How do you suggest the law abiding citizen protects him/herself, without a gun (against a gun)?

These two questions are IMO mutually inclusive.

This is also IMO the nub of the whole gun debate. If these were answered with logic only - I wonder where the whole deal would be!
 

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P95Carry said:
For the anti gun brigade.......

1) - How do you propose to control the use of guns by criminals? Disarming the good guys is not the solution.

2) - How do you suggest the law abiding citizen protects him/herself, without a gun (against a gun)?

These two questions are IMO mutually inclusive.

This is also IMO the nub of the whole gun debate. If these were answered with logic only - I wonder where the whole deal would be!
You cannot control how criminals use guns, If we could control criminals at all, there would'nt be any. We can only make the occupation as uncomfortable as possible, ie no wieght rooms, pizza nights or short sentances. Many countries do quite well with the old hole and fish-heads and rice routine.

Untill they come up with a better, easily portable and concealable weapon (a la star trek), I can conceive of no practical weapon that would be effective against a firearm besides a firearm. If you're lucky you have a more powerful, longer range, and dependable version than the guy trying to take you out. However the weapon that resides between one's ears can be one heck of an ace in the hole, that's why we train, analyze and practice.

Just my .02
 

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P95Carry said:
This is also IMO the nub of the whole gun debate. If these were answered with logic only - I wonder where the whole deal would be!
If it was possible to have answered these with logic alone, they would have done it years ago. Since they can't use logic, they use strictly emotion and have no real answers.

As has been said before, if the complete absence of weapons makes a safe society, why are jails so dangerous?
 

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The criminals WILL get guns regardless if they are legal or not!!!!!!! ALL gun control laws do is keep guns out of the hands of law abiding people!!!!!! When will the ANTI gun people realize this simple fact.
If you let law abiding citizens exercise their right to carry in all states I would be willing to bet Crime would be reduced!!!!!!
You wouldn't send a police officer out on the streets without a weapon. So why would you let a father go out onto the same streets with his family unarmed to face the same dirtbags??
Wake up AMERICA!!!!!!!
 

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Chris if you ask those questions in order you don't get past the first one very often do you LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Nope - the first is about a dead-end on its own!!

I know it's beaten to death and old hat but - the lack of logic application is what really gets me PO'd.
 

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Great question,great answers,and the logic is there,but......I don't worry about this stuff anymore(but I do vote). The anti's are not logicial,they do not have any commom sense. They will NEVER admit their way of thinking is totally wrong. They can't at this point. It would be like calling themselves idiots that have waisted their lives on a non common sense issue.

To me it's like argueing night and day. If it's a bright sunny day at high noon and someone sez that it's dark out and midnight,.....how the heck do you argue with that ??? --------
 

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1) - How do you propose to control the use of guns by criminals?
If good guys don't have guns then they can not give them to bad guys (either voluntarily or by theft).

Making something illegal makes it unavailable for the average person (and there is no difference between "person" and "criminal").

Sure it won't succeed, but if it saves one life its worth it. We can't just do nothing!

2) - How do you suggest the law abiding citizen protects him/herself, without a gun (against a gun)?
Violence is wrong. ALL VIOLENCE. So "self defense" is just as wrong as cold blooded murder.

It would be better to allow yourself to be victimized (even if it means you die) and let the "professionals" handle it ... the guilty will likely be rehabilitated and you can happily give your life knowing that you've contributed to the greater good.

-----

Wow ... after typing all that I feel like I have to wash my hands :dead:

Its pretty clear to me that the battle over gun control is a battle between individualism and collectivism ... individuals shouldn't own guns because some might do bad, but the worse "sin" is that you might use the gun to exert your individualism (in other words decide that your own individual life is worth more than another member of the collective; the criminal).

You are all subjects of the collective. Individualism is evil, selfish, racist, and is to be outlawed at every turn.


Gun control is NOT ABOUT STOPPING CRIMINALS! Never has been, its all about aiding in the construciton of a collectivist utopia. Keep in mind that these people define "civilization" and "civilized" as collectivism.

"No, we're not looking at how to control criminals ... we're talking about banning the AK-47 and semi-automatic guns."
- Former Senator Howard Metzenbaum

"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe."
- Senator Dianne Feinstein

"The Second Amendment has no place in modern society."
- Alan Dershowitz

and I can't find the quote but I believe the founder of HCI said something to the effect of "yeah, gun control won't prevent crime, but so what?"
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Zund - had me goin there briefly :18:

In truth - if all legit guns went in a flash tomorrow - there would be well plenty enough in bad guy's hands to keep crime going another 100 years! THAT is what the Brady bunch et al seem to forget always.

Just thought of another facetious statement to please the anti's - ''Be a victim - help population control''. :rolleyes:
 

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P95Carry said:
if all legit guns went in a flash tomorrow - there would be well plenty enough in bad guy's hands to keep crime going another 100 years!
And if every illegal gun went in a flash tomorrow the criminal element would be restocked by the end of the week.


I'm sure you've read it, but Dave Kopel has written an excellent essay on the subject of the futility of gun control.

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml
 

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You are all subjects of the collective. Individualism is evil, selfish, racist, and is to be outlawed at every turn.

Gun control is NOT ABOUT STOPPING CRIMINALS! Never has been, its all about aiding in the construciton of a collectivist utopia. Keep in mind that these people define "civilization" and "civilized" as collectivism.
Spot on. :35:

Didn't I warn y'all about the dangers of über-liberal thinking, though? :knockedout:

Just yesterday I found an interesting little essay on the web, "Collectivized 'Rights'" by Ayn Rand. Excellent explanation why the rights of the "collective" can never supersede the rights of an individual.
 

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Well seems to me that after reading , oh the Bible, history, and such it can be proven that there have been bad people and wars around way before the invention of gunpowder.
 

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Logic or rather lack of logic is what drives the Anti's, they seem to run on emotion and uninformed opinions of their Liberal icons.
 

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But gun control worked so well in England, Austrailia and 1938 Germany. I cannot see how these dumb#2$ liberals cannot see how gun control can be a good thing.
 

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In the society of the United States of American today its that most of the Sheeple don't want to know the answer to question #1, its that they can't stand to hear the answer to the question.

The answer to question #2 is easy. Hire professional bodyguards to protect you and yours 24/7/365. If you can't afford to do that, buy a gun.

Jungle Work
 

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Here is what I've been told:

#1: If all guns were banned (except by the police, military and government) then there would be no "gun crime". Sure, there would still be crime but you can't "kill" a whole room of people with just a knife/baseball bat/machetee/etc..

#2: Call the police. With no guns in peoples hands then we can hire more police and they will be able to "protect" us from criminals.

And then they expand:

If no one had guns (reg people or criminals) then we would have more of a chance to be safe and if we had to fight back, then we would have our knives if they have a knife, our tire irons if they have a tire iron, etc..

Wayne

*Yes, most of my headaches come from trying to have a logical conversation with people that think like that.
 

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Wayne said:
Here is what I've been told:

#1: If all guns were banned (except by the police, military and government) then there would be no "gun crime". QUOTE]

Let's see if I got this right. If all guns were banned - like switchblade knives are banned; like cocain is banned; like crack is banned; like armed robbery is banned; like rape is banned; like embezzlement is banned; like murder is banned; like child pornography is banned; etc. - then there would be on "gun crime" - like there are no switchblade knives; like there is no cocain; like there is no crack; like there is no armed robbery, like there is no rape; like there is no embezzlement; like there is no murder; like there is no child pornography; etc.

Now it makes sense! I had just not understood it before. Yeah, right.:aargh4:
 

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you can't "kill" a whole room of people with just a knife/baseball bat/machetee/etc..
Yeah, I've heard that argument, too. First, I bet it's very much possible to kill a roomfull of people with a melee weapon, especially with a machete or a short sword like a Gladius. Second, I ask them which KPM ratio (Kills Per Minute) is acceptable to them and if we should ban all objects that potentially exceed that ratio.
 

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Yes, I've "pointed" at Rwanda, Dufer, etc.. showing just what a machette(sp) will do but to them, it was "more than one person so many could be mass murdered". I then point out that if one of the people chopped up had a firearm, even a pistol, then don't you think the murdered person could have stayed a living person?

I actually got this answer from a sweet, very good looking, brain dead liberal gal, "Well, at least they weren't killed by a gun" :aargh4:

I hung my head and walked away. Found out later that she was telling her friends that she "won" a debate with a "gun nut".

Wayne
 
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