Defensive Carry banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
143,837 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This was an unusual question posed on another oddball forum. I read the answers over there & (of course) I have my own opinion but, I'll post the question exactly as it was posted there and see what answers I get over here.
All members welcome to chime right in on it. :yup:

"I've always been taught and trained to shoot nice tight groups.
I'm a decent shot and has never been a problem.
The last few months Ive talked to several LEOs who've told me to open up my shot placement.
Specifically they've said to place each shot 5-6" apart so as to increase trauma.
I'm still inclined to shoot tight center mass (as in 2 to the chest 1 the head, as needed) but what are your guys thoughts?"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,352 Posts
well the more spread ya get the more bad guy will feel it is what the leo's round here say put 2 bullets same in chest and body will react as if shot once but put one 3 inches and and it will go hey what the hell was that
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,034 Posts
Bud's got a point there.


Ti.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,741 Posts
I disagree with the point.

For one, it's not like the BG is going to hold still so you could put one shot through the previous hole. For two, the aim is for maximum effect; if you start aiming 5 or 6 inches away from the first shot, you are more likely to miss.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,034 Posts
CK has a point there.


Ti.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
23,999 Posts
Bud White said:
well the more spread ya get the more bad guy will feel it is what the leo's round here say put 2 bullets same in chest and body will react as if shot once but put one 3 inches and and it will go hey what the hell was that
Kinda says it all, as usual, Bud! :danceban:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
I've heard that suggestion before, or similar ones. The idea is that overlapping wound channels are not maximizing damage to the target, and spreading out the shots will allow each bullet to do maximum damage. I don't know about you, but my 9mm JHP bullets open up to somewhere between 0.55" and 0.65" under optimum conditions. Bruce's .45acp is going to open up to somewhere around 0.72" or maybe a little more. Shots that are 5" apart, do no more damage than shots 1.5" apart.

Combat pistols are not target pistols, and are generally not as accurate as competition pistols. Still, my P226ST is more accurate than I am, and my 357SIG ammo is also very accurate and consistent. I try to spread my shots so that they do maximum damage, but the critical points on a human target are small areas. I don't have to worry about putting all my shots through the same hole. If I keep mine within about a 4" diameter, I'm happy. That would do a BG a fair amount of damage.

I'd rather be too accurate and achieve reliable shot placement, than not accurate enough and fail to hit the critical areas when I needed to. Ideally, I'd like to see my shots spread around 1"-2" apart.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,351 Posts
CopperKnight said:
if you start aiming 5 or 6 inches away from the first shot, you are more likely to miss.
I agree with this... under all that pressure while shootin' back and defending your own, groups are gonna be different than on paper...thats for sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
376 Posts
If you can place your first shot exactly where you want it - follow up shots are less important. If your strategy is to just put holes in the bad guy - then may luck be with you.

I'll take 5 shots through the same hole in the CNS over 10 holes randomly applied to COM.

Sounds like the LEOs he talked to are making excuses for their inaccuracy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
i agree that the bad guy's not gonna stand still and if you're defending yourself against a person instead of a target your grouping's gonna be a little different.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
25,483 Posts
Chances of two (or more) shots same hole are near infinitesimally small.

Most important is to be able (under stress) to actually hit COM reliably every shot. Where they land is up to the Gods but chances are out of two or three, one will do severe damage.

The tight group killing paper will by default open up to large under stress - so practice with small groups is fine by me - I know darned well they'd not be that tight ''in extremis''!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
737 Posts
Hit what you're aiming at, every time. If you're cool enough under fire to aim at different spots on the bad guy's center of mass with each shot, more power to you. As long as you make sure the rounds you send downrange connect with what you aimed them at, it's all good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,674 Posts
I am going to aim COM and put two shots in the BG. They are not going to go through the same hole but they will hit the vitals. IF he still has fight in him, then a third shot to the head. Not to be disrespectful, but IMHO, only the world's best pistol marksmen that have been under fire before would be able to pull that off. If that is you, then my hat is off to you. You must have a Navy SEAL ensigna tattooed on your arm!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
241 Posts
Umm... TOO accurate?

Your groups are going to open up all by themselves when the time comes, I promise you.

I'll leave you with this:
I've seen people ahead of the reactionary curve (weapon at the ready) drop the first shot REAL low when reacting to a threat. Hell - I've done it, although someone had to tell me I did it because I sure didn't remember.
Take into account that most every single CC person is going to be either within or behind the reactionary curve if you have to fire your weapon and you will unconsciously be trying to speed up time.

Bottom line? Who shoots just once and waits for BG to cue the dramatic death-scene? If your training is at a level where you can realistically discuss intentional shot placement during moments of extreme stress then my hat's off to you.

However - I think this falls into a category of technique that far too many people get sucked into: It's a valid technique, the theory is sound, but how many people do you know that are skilled enough to actually apply the technique correctly and effeciently?
I would be more apt to buy into this if the miss rate statistics weren't so high.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,674 Posts
Well, I think PickPocket settled that!

It sounds that he has some real world experience to back that up.

I believe that 99.9% of us couldn't do it in a real world experience.

On paper targets, heck we all get lucky when we are shooting for group and put 'em through the same hole sometimes, but not in a real gunfight.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
19,008 Posts
COM for me. Stress, movement and recoil will all affect bullet placement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,134 Posts
for myself its enough to worry about hitting that moving cussing twisting sucker com till he falls down , while i am moving, cussing ,twisting and shooting . Hopefully ill continue to remain with the no of holes god gave me . Ill critique the scoring rings later so to speak .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,843 Posts
Don't know 'bout youz guyz but I'm soooo accurate that I have to worry about putting the second shot thru the first hole and etc. I actually have to aim "just a little" to the right or left less all 8 shots will be thru a .452" hole.

YEAH,RIGHT. Who the heck came up with this one ????

I could go on ....BUT.....why should I ???

How 'bout this --> hang up a blank piece of 12 X 18" white paper. Tell all the "real" marksmen of the bunch,"take your time and put a single shot right in the center of the paper". Now,draw and fire your remaining (7 or so) shots as close as you can to the first hole. This in under 4 seconds with me screaming at you and waving stuff close by to distract you while shineing a very bright light very close to your face. Let me know the outcome please.---------
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top