[P95Carry]

There's an oxymoron!

By this I mean - if a bad guy is real good at his ''work'' and so manages to fly under our radar - hopefully unlikely but let us assume not impossible. The one dangerous scenario I would anticipate with extreme trepidation - is the ''SURPRISE'' situation.

The apparently totally normal guy in front at the cash register - who suddenly, and I mean suddenly - explodes into armed action... despite not knowing that you are behind as a threat - but immediately has, say, the clerk in his sights. (for want of a better example).

At worst - and accept for now this could occur, despite your best efforts - - - how many remember the sneaky paper bag bang by some playful kid - a sudden shock effect. Usually this causes us to ''jump'' - some more or less than others - but nonetheless it produces IMO a brief ''WTF moment'' - followed by comprehension.

I try and follow my personal mantras of ''expect the unexpected'' and ''don't assume'' but - have to say - in the event of a total surprise it has to be a finite time before I have ''read the form'' and can act with suitable ( and SAFE) action. Which may very well NOT mean a shooting war!

So - while I have no easy answers to remedy this - I am just (as usual) digging into the thoughts of others. You may be getting used to this now (I hear sighs!!).

 

[dhomoney]

You bring up a valid point

The key to this is that as you said the guy does not see you behind him as a threat. We can debate as to whether or not to draw and fire, but it does provide a good reason why not only a pistol should be carried but also a good tactical folding knife.

In this situation I would have to say that a nice little knife clipped to your pocket could be as effective if not more effective then a pistol on your hip. You have a chance to surprise him and you are close enough to deploy the knife before he could swing around and use his weapon of choice, presumably for arguements sake, a gun. This also prevents a miss or over penatrating round from potentially hitting the clerk(s) and can do catastrophic damage to the BG in this situation.

Just food for thought.

 

[George Hill]

This is a touchy situation.
There are 3 options.
1. Play stupid and slowly back away or just comply with demands and let the guy get away while taking note of descriptions for the police reports.
2. Draw your weapon and give your best Clint Eastwood and hope he complies and drops his weapon. Which, if he is "good" and all sudden like, I wouldn't count on it as his reaction will probably be to turn and fire on you.
3. Draw quietly, put the muzzle to the back of the badguy's head at the base of his skull and inflict severe damage to the medula oblongota which is the only way to insure that the bad guy will not harm you or the clerk.

Whatever your choice, you had best be able to articulate the reasons for your choice to the numerous police officers you are going to be spending time with.

I was in this situation once before and chose option 2. The badguy ran for it, but nothing was stolen and more importantly no one was hurt.

 

[P95Carry]

Thx for comments. I should mention or emphasize - the scenario is not in itself so much the reason for the post - otherwise I really should have put it in the other forum.

Rather it is exploring folk's thinking on the ''surprise'' aspect - how we respond to sudden and unexpected events - making therefore a potential for delay in our judgement or summation of the scene around, whatever that may be - no threat, medium or high.

Natural reaction usually to a sudden and unexpected (total surprise) action by an individual - a sudden noise - whatever - all need absorbed and interpreted - and it strikes me this is harder and takes longer, due to the ''startling'' effect.

So anyways as ever - just ''fishing''. :smile:

 

[The Tourist]

I think anyone closing the distance should be watched. If it's two guys, it's always trouble.

 

[Prospector]

One of the things I like about this forum is the brain-teasers/stimuli that all you guys and gals put out here...point to make is exposure to new thought...once "known" can decrease that "hesitation" to react. Vets will know what I'm talkin about when thought of as training....you train for spontaneous reaction/response (proper of course) to a myriad of situations that might occur in your daily mission/routine....obviously no training can cover every possibility, but there will be similarities that you can recognize quickly and then respond.....put in somewhat perspective, the clerk/BG situation might not be such a surprise given what we've all read and commented on in this forum...at least not unexpected. :redface:

 

[Tom357]

...Rather it is exploring folk's thinking on the ''surprise'' aspect - how we respond to sudden and unexpected events - making therefore a potential for delay in our judgement or summation of the scene around, whatever that may be - no threat, medium or high...

As mentioned in another thread, about 85% of the population does experience a signficant delay in responding to a sudden alert. I think the ambiguity of the urban setting, where people are forced into close contact with strangers all the time, and where crossing the street may not be easy or practical, makes surprise situations more common. I'm not a city person, and I find working downtown in a violent city, especially after hours, intimidating. I do worry that I will either hesitate too long in a surprise situation, or over-react in anticipation of a situation that never develops. In the end, I try to stay in Yellow and not let my imagination get the best of me.

 

[LPguy]

Although Most of us would love to play Dirty Harry in this situation, remember there may be innocent bystanders including members of your own family.

I mentioned in another thread that I spent 11 years retail security.
Here is what i instructed cashiers to do if someone waves a gun in their face.

1. give him what he wants. A cashiers life is worth more than the money in the register or a tank of gas or whatever is sold there.

2. Don't argue, comment or agree to accompany a robber.

As for an innocent bystander drawing a weapon........

How sure are you the suspect will comply with your demand to disarm and not return fire? or.......that he won't get jumpy and start shooting himself in the face of his own perceived threat? Is the suspect on drugs? desperate for his next high or drunk or whatever?

My suggestion........... Unless lives are in IMMINENT PERIL

Keep your hand on your weapon and the other on your trusty cell phone. Call the cavalry, give a full discription of the perp and his vehicle including a plate number. The store will most likely have video to corroborate your discription.

Remember, you cut loose with a few rounds in a store, as far as the police are concerned. You are a criminal too until they deem otherwise. That make take awhile with a body on the floor and a smoking gun in your hand.

Stay safe and fight smart,

Mike

 

[Deke45]

Just a thought. One thing not seen mentioned here but worthy of suggestion. You may be behind the BG when he springs into action, but who is behind you! There might be an accomplice in the background that's totally uninvolved in the immediate actions, but in a position to cover the BG's back. You could find yourself in a most precarious position, which by the time it's realized, could be to late!

 

[The Tourist]

Perhaps we are painting these guys too darkly, quantifying their supposed skills and denigrating common citizens as being too frail. I believe the same concepts of power and intimidation are no different now than they've always been.

If it's one thing I've learned from gun/knife/combat forums, it's the underlying equation they espouse to justify the product they're selling and why they're doing it.

First, 'the enemies are powerful.' No, they're not. They're common guys like us. They're too stupid to work or go to school. Intimidation is their one-trick-pony. I punched a mugger once. His accomplice immediately whined, "Why'd you do that?"

Second, 'learn from me, I'm a guru.' No, you're not. Your another guy with an idea. With your idea, and a buck, I get a seat at Starbucks and small cup of coffee. Did you ever ask yourself why some guys have forums and the real tough guys are mending fences or have 'community service' to do?

Third, 'I can help you.' No, you have a book, a knife or a video to sell. Now I don't mind a little self promotion, you ought to see me 'hawk' the audience! But I draw the line at a smattering of training, the sale of a new knife shape and a video stamped "he trains SEALs."

However, look at the wonderful playground Bumper has given us! No egos, just a bunch of guys with a song in our hearts and boogers up our fingernails. All of us with safety concerns and none of us being a ninja. Yes, there is danger on the street, advise each other to be vigilant, as we always have done--and as Jeff Cooper has done for several decades.

Now granted, the older I get the less I fear. But I'm not going to elevate the dangers or our supposed enemies. Avoid when possible. But make the highwaymen and the gurus pay for every inch of real estate they claim.

Oh, and show us your new guns and give a synopsis. I've seen firearms here I didn't even know existed.