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Discussion Starter #1
Should it be shutdown?

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4159028


This is a local shop and I never go there. The guns are way overpriced and the clientel are mostly from the city.

That gun shop is one of 3 gun stores in the Philadelphia area that have track records like this.

My opinion.... if a gun shop has statistics like this, it should be closed down and moved.

Opinions?
 

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UPPER DARBY, Pa. - May 17, 2006 - Law enforcement is in the midst of a concerted effort to combat growing gun violence. Police and community leaders today are focusing their efforts on a gun shop they say is responsible for putting many of the weapons on the street.

The business in question is Lou's Pawn shop. Gun control activists say that in a single year, the shop that store sold 178 guns that were later used in crimes.

Under Pennsylvania law, those sales were all legal. But the gun control advocates want that to change.
So if the sales were legal, why should the business be closed down?

Why not go after the criminals instead?

Matt
 

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Before anybody jumps into conclussions, How many guns were sold during that year? Check ratio before anything else.
 

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so if there is a rash of muffler beatings where the mufflers come from auto zone you gona close the auto parts store know this souds silly but blaming the the store for some one being a crimanal is like blaming the gun for the crime one gun or a million of them never comited a murder on there own but on man or a million might
 

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The articoe states that all of the gun sales were legal. I don't see a problem with the gun shop. This 'straw purchase' ruse to sue gun shops and attempt to shut them down is a bit suspicous. It seems that in HINDSIGHT it may be obvious that the purchase was for resale to someone oels, however, it may not have been apparent at the time of the original purchase. And how many of the 178 were to the same person? or was it 150 different people, or 100 or only 5. Either way, go after those making straw purchases, the records are there to get them not the gun shop.
 

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I doubt we have the whole skinny on this.

A gun dealer can only go by info supplied and if it seems to check out OK - there is little more they can do. The figure given of 178 is both staggering I admit very concerning - each and every gun sale that leads to crime is one more problem for us legit' folks.

Now if numerous sales were categorically proven to be illegal then yes, close a store - it is necessary to keep a tight run ship for our own sakes.

More info is needed here re how and why and when with transactions - and over what timeframe too.
 

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Jamie Young said:
http://www.nbc10.com/news/8860289/detail.html?subid=10101521

That bar is one block from the Pawn/Gun shop.

Do we see a trend here?

I think it's time to close the shop down and move it out of the neighborhood.



I'll post them when I get them.
So you have no problem with shutting down this shop, even though your own source indicated that they have done nothing illegal?

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think the shop needs to move out of that area. Pawn shops don't bring in the best of society in the first place. Putting a gun shop in a pawn shop is probable the root of the problem.
 

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I'm sort of with Matt and others on this. If they were legal sales, then what should go away is the bar serving as a hangout for the drug dealers. The drug dealers are the problem, not the shop. And now that they have been busted maybe the problem is solved. I'd say that if he is required to move his shop, the city/county/state requiring it should pay for his move....
 

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Gun control activists say that in a single year, the shop that store sold 178 guns that were later used in crimes
See how well articulated the statement was written. It doesn't tell what kind of crimes or if they were bought and inmediately used in a commission of a crime or if they were stolen and then used. It does not tell you what percentage of the total volume of guns sold during the year this number represent or if it is higher or lower than other stores.

They tried to pull the same stunt here last year down here in South Florida. Incidentally, the name of the gun shop was Lou's too. A two day "in depth" reporting by the Miami Herald pointed the finger at this shop for selling the biggest amount of guns used in crimes. They sort of forgot, did not know or ignored that Lou's is probably the biggest sellers of firearms in SoFla and that the number of firearms sold from that store and used in crimes was a miniscule & ridicule figure. The funniest part was that some "concerned" advocates of gun control tried to hint that the store might be involved in some sort of illegal activities: shadowy figures, colombian drug dealers and gangsta types going to Lou's for their combat wares... which it is hilarious if you have actually tried to park nearby the damn store. Not only it has insuficient spaces but 90% of the spaces are taken by patrol cars from every darn jurisdiction in SoFla.

You see, Lou's is the premier Gun Store for LEO's down here. Also a cop hangout. Not the type of place your average criminal goes to do a straw purchase or get an AK for tonite's Drive-By.
 

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Jamie Young said:
I think the shop needs to move out of that area. Pawn shops don't bring in the best of society in the first place. Putting a gun shop in a pawn shop is probable the root of the problem.
So it is OK to destroy someone's livelihood (aka the business in question) even though they have complied with all applicable laws just to suit someone's whim?

If the shop were violating the law, and making unlawful sales, I would be right there with you saying it must go.

But the articles have plainly said that the shop's sales were legal.

Matt
 

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We had the same situation here in Wisconsin. Between 1996 and 1998 the largest gun store in our state was linked to the guns used to commit 40 homicides. However, all paperwork was done according to requirements and the store is still the states largest and best. If the stores are selling legally don't blame them, go after the people reselling the guns. In most of these of shootings it's the bad guys shooting each other anyway.
 

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Many years ago, a man chased down and hacked up his nephew with a chainsaw, and I was hoping that chainsaw wasn't bought at my dad's store, because I was afraid the family would include in their lawsuit the store the chainsaw was bought from. It wouldn't be the first time my dad was sued for the end-user's misuse; many years before that, a family misused a cleaning agent, set their house on fire, resulting in their baby being killed. Dad's insurance co. settled out of court, and to this day, I'll bet that family still blames my dad.

If the guns were purchased legally, the store should not be held responsible.
If they were sold illegally, they should be held responsible.
If they were sold legally but the owner had clear knowledge the buyer was going to commit a crime with it, or knew it was a strawman purchase, they should be responsible.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
If the guns were purchased legally, the store should not be held responsible.
If they were sold illegally, they should be held responsible.
If they were sold legally but the owner had clear knowledge the buyer was going to commit a crime with it, or knew it was a strawman purchase, they should be responsible.

I agree with that, and 95% of what the rest of you are stating.

I'm still trying to get all the facts on the 3 gun shops that are getting flak from the straw buying.

Keep in mind, somebody like P95Carry is 3hrs West of me, and he may be affected by a new AWB and a 1 gun a month legislation because of what is going on 5 minutes from my home. These 3 gun shops are being used by criminals to acquire firearms legally, and their location to the criminal element IMHO isn't helping.


I still lean toward moving the shop out of the neighborhood, but I'm still researching all the facts. If this shop is shutdown, I'm in agreement that the move should be funded by the City of Philadelphia or the Township.
 

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The NBC story says they made "dozens of arrests in a big drug bust all over Upper Darby." A police officer stated that the nearby bar should be shut down and turned into a "parking lot." It sounds to me like this is a rough neighborhood with a bunch of scofflaws and criminals. How is that the pawn shop's fault? If the pawn shop closed up tomorrow, would that really improve the neighborhood if the bars and drug dealers are still around?

Those who want to obtain guns will go elsewhere to obtain them, and those who want to obtain guns for protection against the roughnecks would be forced to find someplace else as well.

If the pawn shop is selling guns illegally, or knowingly selling to straw purchasers, then deal with that problem. But to shut down or move the pawn shop just because some people are using legally obtained guns for criminal purposes is illogical.

Furthermore, if the pawn shop is the "crime magnet" that you propose, then moving it to a "better" neighborhood will just bring that neighborhood down, won't it?

Right now in PA, as a resident who meets all eligibility requirements, I can legally purchase a firearm from whatever gun shop I choose, even if it is in a seedy neighborhood. The seedy gun shop still has to go through the same background check as the one in a good neighborhood. And if I come up clean, they have no reason to deny my purchase. They should not be held liable for what I decide to do with the purchase.

LibertyGal
 

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Read about that in local paper today.

Superficially at least it does seem Lou's stretched the envelope to much and too often - which is not good for us regarding PR in the gun community. These days dealers need to be squeaky clean.

I was interested to see the PA dealer figure as being over 2800.
 
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