[Tangle]

In Cop Talk by Massad Ayoob, in the 2005 September/October American handgunner, Mas is promoting the Cominolli safety for Glocks. To see if the safety slows down the draw-to-fire time, he and a couple of buddies timed themselves with a stock Glock and a Glock with the Cominolli safety installed. Well, the safety slowed them down, purportedly, an insignificant amount but when I saw the draw and fire times, I was stunned.

The draw and fire times for the stock Glock were reported as:

#1 - 0.43 to 0.59 seconds for an average of 0.492
#2 - 0.56 - 0.66 seconds for an average of 0.61 (this was Mas's times)
#3 - didn't list

I was timed once in a class at Gunsite at 0.90 seconds - it was the fastest in the class. I have timed myself numerous times and that's about as fast as I can do and get a decent hit. Plus, Gunsite's expected draw and fire times are about 1.25 seconds - that may be for two shots in an advanced class. But anyway it's no where near the times Mas is claiming. I suppose I might be able to improve my draw and fire time some if I worked hard enough at it, but I could never approach those speeds. Plus, I figure unless I kept it up, I would lose the gained speed.

I saw a guy at a shooting school I went to, do a legitimate draw and fire of 0.66 seconds and the RM, an IDPA national champion, was clearly impressed with the speed. And, BTW, let me tell you how fast this guy was. I know you won't believe this, I wouldn't believe it if you were telling me, but I saw him do this and then I took the G-17 he was doing it with and couldn't even come close. Here's what he did, naaww, you won't believe it.

So back to the article. Of course it may be that they started with their hand on the gun instead of the hand hanging loosely beside it; that would cut off a bunch of time.

So, what do you guys think can these guys be that fast?

OK, OK, what I saw the guy do, was rack the slide of his G-17 with one hand, not touching or contacting anything but air, he could pull the gun rearward, then instantly reverse the motion so fast, that it would rack the slide. Not only that, but it was absolutely astonishing to see him racking out round after round. I took his empty gun and couldn't even start to make the slide rack. We all tried and nobody else could either!

 

[QKShooter]

I'd Pay 10 Bucks Ta see a Vid

of that one handed inertia G 17 slide racking. :biggrin:

 

[cmidkiff]

Guy's hand speed was fast enough to overcome the recoil spring of a G17? That is rather difficult to believe. Not that I doubt you, but that would be _very_ tough.

 

[P95Carry]

I cannot see an inertial slide op' as possible unless recoil spring real whimpy! I too would like to see vid evidence of that.

I am far from fast with draw compared to the elite guys - but, I practice and know that at least my first shot can be good. Probably best I can do now.

 

[RSSZ]

What's so hard to believe about that? Heck, I can do that with my Desert Eagle. ----------

 

[Tangle]

Guy's hand speed was fast enough to overcome the recoil spring of a G17? That is rather difficult to believe. Not that I doubt you, but that would be _very_ tough.

I know, I know! You tried it didn't you!

I took his gun right after he did it. I specifically asked him if he had a weaker recoil spring. He said, "No." I racked the slide; it didn't feel weak. Then I tried the one-handed feat - I couldn't come close; even without a magazine in place.

Five of us witnessed this. It was at D.R. Middlebrooks shooting school. He himself said guys, "You gotta see this. Do it Urich!" And Urich amazed us. Of course we all had to try it. Nobody came close.

But, this is a guy who, routinely did a draw-and-fire in 0.66 seconds, with that same G-17, drawing from an old military style holster - no flap though.

Maybe it was a slight of hand trick; but I saw him go from shooting to one-hand slide racking. So, he didn't have opportunity to changer recoil springs. I racked the slide, it felt normal to me. None of us could come close with the same gun. Hand it back to him, he inserts a magazine and bullets come flying out.

Need I say it was the most amazing gun thing I have ever seen, well except for Jerry Miculek maybe?

 

[QKShooter]

Tangle

Well, I didn't believe that somebody could completely field strip & then reassemble a SIG P220 using only one hand until I actually saw it done AND the guy did it FAST too...so I guess it's possible.

 

[Rob72]

Mas has been digging himself deeper and deeper, lately. As I recall, Dave Spaulding said that 1.0-1.25 was extremely respectable, from concealment(which I can buy- very unscientifically, I can sweep-n-draw to a 1.15, with the blood pumping). Folks making >0.5 secs (from a duty holster, or a speed-rig? )are spending more time on the range than writing reports or responding to calls. I really doubt Mas had one of his "average" cop buddies do it, if it was actually done, and if it wasn't done on "Area 51", against the zombie hordes :wink: .

But who am I to say, I'd still like to take an LFI course..... :silly:

 

[Tangle]

Guys, your comments have made me think about this different light. I know I saw what I described. But now that I really think about it, it had to be some kind of ”parlor” trick.

I got out my G-17, gen 2 just like his, and discovered two things: one, it would be impossible for any human to rack a stock G-17 slide the way he appeared to, and two, if I remove the recoil spring and guide rod, guess what? I could rack the slide and eject rounds (dummy training rounds that is) just like he did.

So how did he do it and we couldn’t? I think that was the parlor trick; I believe he had two G-17s and was some how switching them without us realizing it.

I think what made it believable to us is that this was a serious guy – a bodyguard - an excellent shot. A con seemed way out of character for him. But, now thanks to your responses, I have no doubt that it was no more than some kind of trick. So we can all sleep better tonight knowing the laws of physics and the limitations of humans are still in effect.

Sorry, guys, but thanks for making me realize it could not have been real.

So now that I have totally distracted us from the main question, maybe we can get back to it. You think Mas, et al were as fast as he claims?

Rob72,
"...I can sweep-n-draw to a 1.15, with the blood pumping)..."

Me too, well, with the right cover garment, and I've always thought that was quite respectable.

I have learned some good stuff from Ayoob's writings but I do notice some quirks, like an over focus on safeties.

As I stated before, IF the times are real, they surely must have started with their hand gripping the gun.

 

[Bud White]

The times seem to fast to me unless that is all you do 3-4 hours a day on drawing etc etc..


As to the other i call BS not on you but on them deff a slight of hand trick as you said probley switching the gun.. You can take a 1911 with buttery smooth slide and can do it even if you too firing pin out hammer out and disconnector still wouldnt do it on the recoil spring but take spring out and now you da man

 

[QKShooter]

I hate to call ANYTHING impossible

'casuse I saw a TV repairman on some TV show (without any arms at all) one time take a whole TV apart & repair it & put it back together again with his feet. The guy used a screwdriver w/ his feet the same way we would with a hand.
Here is what I did though...I took my weakest recoil spring & put it in a Colt Govt. Model with the magazine OUT...then I even cocked the hammer & tried that & I could not get the slide to do much more than move back about a half inch. I have a GOOD STRONG and fast right arm....MAYBE the guy switched GLOCKS & not the recoil spring.
I would honestly like to see that.

Concerning those AVERAGE "DRAW TO FIRE" times. Those are damn good times. You can be SURE that they are not sweeping any shirt tails out of the way first.
Massad Ayoob...lately?....No Comment.

 

[rfurtkamp]

The speed thing isn't as hard as it seems to. Some people will *always* be faster than others just by luck of genetic draw, but the truth is that you don't have to be that fast to have folks consider you amazing.

I do demos for the kids I teach on occasion where I fire at my normal medium rate, and it's the fastest thing they've ever seen. I hesitate to actually open up as it turns into one big burp out of the Sig. Mechanical lock time is typically the limiter on folks who can shoot fast.

And I'm not the fastest locally by any stretch I'm sure. Typing 100+ wpm consistently and playing guitar probably help.

 

[N.M. Edmands]

If the tests were done from LE "interview" position, I believe it's doable by a competant shooter. No cover garment, bladed to the target,weak hand up and out at chest level, and strong hand with a firing grip/holster open.
That said, the sub .5 times are exceptional!

 

[Tangle]

If the tests were done from LE "interview" position, I believe it's doable by a competant shooter. No cover garment, bladed to the target,weak hand up and out at chest level, and strong hand with a firing grip/holster open.
That said, the sub .5 times are exceptional!

Maybe so. I'm planning to go to the range tomorrow or Friday and I'm going to see how fast I can draw starting with my grip on the gun.

I was a little curious about the phrase, "...weak hand up and out at chest level...". If I understand this correctly, if the weak hand is up and out at chest level, wouldn't that put the support hand in front of the gun and introduce the possibility of the muzzle sweeping the support hand?

Most teach placing the support hand on the tummy or chest until the gun sweeps past the support hand (without ever covering it) and then the support hand is moved to grip position. That way the support hand cannot be swept by the muzzle during the draw stroke.

 

[HiWayMan]

I can usually clear leather and put one on target from a hands up position in around 1.33 with my S&W M21TRS in a strong side belt holster. I can clear my pocket and get one on target from the same position in 1.70 with my Taurus 651. Starting with my hand on my gun in my pocket I can do it in about 0.65-0.70.

 

[Free American]

I also read the article and was a bit surprised by the listed draw times. I am almost positive this was done from duty rigs because the point of the article was safeties on Glocks and the fact that they don't affect draw and fire times.

 

[N.M. Edmands]

I was a little curious about the phrase, "...weak hand up and out at chest level...". If I understand this correctly, if the weak hand is up and out at chest level, wouldn't that put the support hand in front of the gun and introduce the possibility of the muzzle sweeping the support hand?


Should have been clearer about this, sorry. The support hand is "palm"out, about chest level, just foward of and ouside the support side shoulder.
Picture standing bladed to the target and raising your hand [ss]from the elbow
to a position similar to "stop!"[or How as in cowboys and indians]. If the SHTF
and the decision is made to go to guns, just roll the hand inward while pulling in to chest or abdomen. [ sort of a reverse "Hail Ceasar " move] From the interview position you are keeping the weapon shielded from the "threat", while being able to thrust out W/ the ss hand if needed to block or push. If the weapon is used, it is fired strong hand only as you rotate on target just above the holster. Close contact retention.
With practice it is very fast, bad breath to 5yds. I hope I'm clearing it up, but I have a mind/keyboard problem

 

[P95Carry]

Subahaba - that for me xplains very well. Thx.

Somehow doubt I've said Hi! Welcome :smile:

 

[Rob72]

I am almost positive this was done from duty rigs because the point of the article was safeties on Glocks and the fact that they don't affect draw and fire times.

"When you can snatch this doughnut from my hand, without exploding the jelly center, Grasshopper, then you will be ready to learn the Ayoob draw.....!" :biggrin:

 

[N.M. Edmands]

"When you can snatch this doughnut from my hand". I may not be able to deploy my pistol quickly, but that doughnut and all evidence are gone so fast you won't know the condition of the center. Want to see me do it again?