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Over christmas my girlfriend's grandpa was sawing me his collection of guns and letting me handle them and when we got to his colt government he dropped the mag and emptied the chamber and saw a really neat bullet. it hald a nickel(or some other silver metal) casing and a black JHP. when i asked what it was and where i could find them he gave me a smirk and said "you can't buy em thats for sure" then proceeded to tell me that they were the teflon coated "cop killers" from the Lethal Weapon days.

i thought all that stuff would have been used up by now, but are bullets like "cop killers" and black talons still floatin around?
 

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Black Talon Or the Cop Killers:rolleyes: sure there still around think i got couple boxes for 300 mag just havent shot them up .

Also there still out there in Winchester Ranger SXT rounds or and Ammo marked SXT secret is dont call um black talons dont paint um black and make the bullet better than the black talons with a name like SXT and bam no body screaming there heads off about cop killers..


SXT= Supreme Expansion Technology

Same thing it says on my Black Talon box except it says


Black Talon SXT and have the little claws coming out :rolleyes:
 

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Oh yeah - the old color deal!! Not only is beauty in the eye of the beholder but so it seems too is evil!

Let a bullet be black instead of shiny copper and it almost by default it will get the ''killer'' label :wink:

The modern ammo choices really still give us pretty much all the potential ever needed - possibly the only illegals which might have use in some instances are the AP versions.
 

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I've got a bunch of it in 9mm. Some is the older style with the black bullet. Some is the newer stuff. The joke is that SXT really stands for 'same exact thing". There's nothing illegal about it here.
 

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There is no such thing as a "Cop Killer" bullet. No normal handgun bullet will penetrate a good vest. Especially a HP. Teflon...? Now an AP round. That's different.---------
 

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Urban Myth's

One of the reasons I like this board is to help others learn more about our love our sport our rights. Before taking my classes for Concealed carry I too thought that Black Talon's AKA Cop Killers were illegal and there was a ban on them. Little did I know that was all BS propped up by a liberal media and urban myths.
In fact if you do a basic google search on the subject you'll find out exactly how this myth spread like a virus.

Winchester Black Talon Revisited (excerpt from free republic.com)

There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing capability.

Here's the lowdown:

The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants.

The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition. U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is armor-piercing.

(Federal Nyclad ammunition is often mistaken as armor-piercing ammunition too, due to the blue-black nylon coating on the lead bullet.)

The black Lubalox coating on the Black Talon bullet is meant to reduce in-bore friction and chamber pressure. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle, the mission of the coating is completed. Lubalox does not give the bullet any special property that allows it to blast through police soft body armor.



Great question, and great answers.
 

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:rolleyes: cop killer rounds. Funny how the media causes even some gun owners to believe their B.S. Black Talons were voluntarily pulled. My thought was for 1. good PR. 2. increase sales
Also my understanding was nyclad bullets were for a decrease in airborne lead particles for indoor shooting.
 

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I have about 115rds of the origional(Black Box) Black Talon ammo in .44 Mag(250gr). Also about 100rds. of the same in .45ACP(230gr.) My huntin' buddy uses the 200gr.,10mm loading in his Javalina. My .44Mag and his 10mm are used exclusively for wild boar(hogs). They do a great job. They will penetrate completely through the bigger hogs. The energy transfer is tremendous. My CC load that I carry in my Kimber is the .45ACP loading. I have pulled a bullet and they(as advertised) are truly a "reverse taper jacket". The jacket is very thick around the HP cavity and it gets thinner as it goes down towards the base. The BT line is the only bullets that I have ever herd that were built in this manner. As far as I know,all the BT bullets are designed in this manner. The Ranger line and the SXT line of bullets might have the jacket designed in this manner but can't say for sure. These bullets were also given a bad rap by the doctors in the ER's. When they were diggin' around in the wounds of BG's the "Talons" would cut their rubber gloves. They also would make comments as to the massive trauma that these bullets would cause. That's what made me stock up on them. To all you doctors out their.... THANKS --------
 

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The original BTs are what I carry in all my guns (9mm,10mm & .45)

Actually there were 2 bullets dubbed "cop killers, 1 was indeed Teflon coated, to hold down on lead splatter in indoor ranges, just so happened to penetrate IIA vests. When the media got hold of it all the cops (FBI; DOJ, etc) begged them not to release the info for 2 reasons; 1} it highlighted that cops were wearing vests and there was the fear of more head shots (which happened) 2} The cops had been using the bullets to put down professional armed robbers who were wearing soft armor more and more and didn’t want the ammo taken off the market or known it existed. Well it was too good a story and it went to press and there was federal legislation about handgun ammo capable of penetrating vests.

Well the “COP KILLER” tag worked so well that when the media decided to go after Black Talons they dredged up the “COP KILLER” moniker again and attached it to the BTs.

So the Teflon vest penetrater in Lethal Weapon and the BTs are different bullets the press smeared with the same emotional tear jerker moniker.

BTW...WW pulled the BTs off the market to prevent setting a precedent of outlawing a bullet design fearing (do you doubt it) that it would only be the first of probably all HPs being labeled and outlawed.
:theyareontome:
 

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had a few boxes of Black talons come thru the store last week...........I scooped em up real fast.... LOL..........also those Geco B A T bullets are in my posesson as well
 

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I have a box of some old Winchester 38 Special pre-Ranger ammo where the box is marked "Law Enforcement Only" - it's not illegal, the box is just neat looking. (I guess Winchester could add in small print "because we demand that distributors only sell this to law enforcement dealers or we'll get really mad and complain").
Thinking about Black Talon, etc, I would really like to have a couple boxes of the old Super Vel ammo -- had all kinds of warnings all over it about Police Only and everything else to make you think that the feds would show up in helicopters if you touched it.
I will say that the Super Vel stuff was loaded extremely hot.
 

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Your right Bud,It'll never go away.That's why I still hate the term"assault rifle". HUH ?? What the hell is that?? --------
 

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RSSZ said:
Your right Bud,It'll never go away.That's why I still hate the term"assault rifle". HUH ?? What the hell is that?? --------

Ya got me but it will never go away either..

im surprised the Term Street Sweeper did go away
 

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A small addition here from a post on another board - ref' the old Glaser round - might be of interest to include as it suggests rather ineffectual results.
Firearms Tactical Institute

Work of the U.S. Government; not subject to copyright in the United States.

Web Site Index and Navigation Center
U.S. Department of Justice
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989

From page 5:
Mechanics of Handgun Wounding
All handgun wounds will combine the components of penetration, permanent cavity, and temporary cavity to a greater or lesser degree. Fragmentation, on the other hand, does not reliably occur in handgun wounds due to the relatively low velocities of handgun bullets. Fragmentation occurs reliably in high velocity projectile wounds (impact velocity in excess of 2000 feet per second) inflicted by soft or hollow point bullets.10 In such a case, the permanent cavity is stretched so far, and so fast, that tearing and rupturing can occur in tissues surrounding the wound channel which were weakened by fragmentation damage.11,12 It can significantly increase damage13 in rifle bullet wounds.
Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle, reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs. The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."14 (My emphasis - SS.) In cases where some fragmentation has occurred in handgun wounds, the bullet fragments are generally found within one centimeter of the permanent cavity. "The velocity of pistol bullets, even of the new high-velocity loadings, is insufficient to cause the shedding of lead fragments seen with rifle bullets."15 It is obvious that any additional wounding effect caused by such fragmentation in a handgun wound is inconsequential.
Of the remaining factors, temporary cavity is frequently, and grossly, overrated as a wounding factor when analyzing wounds.16 Nevertheless, historically it has been used in some cases as the primary means of assessing the wounding effectiveness of bullets.


Dr. Fackler, a former U.S. Military trauma surgeon, is one of the foremost wound experts in the world. Duncan MacPherson is a real rocket scientist who worked with Dr. Fackler on the math / physics behind the wounding mechanisms that Dr. Fackler observed in his medical practice. MacPherson wrote THE seminal text on the subject, Bullet Penetration Modeling the Dynamics and Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma. I finally got a copy. It's a mathematically rigerous study, and tough reading for someone who graduated from engineering school in 1965. Basically it discounts most of what we read from the gun magazines, and debunks "kinetic energy dump", "hydrostatic shock", Taylor K.O. formula, Sanow's works. All the relatively easy-to- understand intuitive stuff.
 

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RSSZ said:
Your right Bud,It'll never go away.That's why I still hate the term"assault rifle". HUH ?? What the hell is that?? --------
They'll never understand that assault is a behavior, not a device.

Incidently, I have an original Winchester Black Talon bullet that I fired new into wet newspaper, recovered the bullet, noted a lack of any deformation, reloaded it and fired it again with the same result. Other Talon rounds expanded as advertised. Just goes to show it's not the bullet. It's where you place it that counts.
 

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P95, Your above post is exactly the reason why I am content with a bullet that will penetrate deep and streight. I hate them birdshot bullets. I feel that I can control shot placement well enough to keep the GG's out of a reasonable ammount of danger. Other than that, they better not stand their with their mouth open. -------
 

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Sufficient speed and sufficient resistance to deformation (really fast and moderately hard) are the only things that will defeat body armor. The teflon coating used on the tungsten AP handgun rounds was to lessen wear on the barrels, not to aid in penetrating body armor. Teflon coating on bullets has also been used to aid in penetrating glass. Seems it keeps a bullet from deflecting off a glass surface.

But almost any centerfire rifle cartridge will penetrate soft body armor.
 
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