[Euclidean]

I've long heard this old chesnut regarding the relative (in)effectiveness of .22 LR against goblins: that a shot from a .22 pistol is effectively the same as stabbing someone with an icepick.

I've always thought of it as just a good analogy. No one would really agree that an ice pick is that great of a weapon, but it could certainly function in a pinch, it just wouldn't really stop an attacker who was the slightest bit determined. And if you put it in the whole Ears Eyes Nose Throat area, it could be rather effective.

Is there however any truth to this? Has some whacko with too much spare time and a block of gelatin ever tried to prove or disprove this? It came up the other time with some people swearing it was literally true. I argued that the ice pick was probably actually more damaging most of the time.:tongue:

I'm not saying we should all rush out and buy .22s for self defense or that if the only thing available is a 22/45 you should use your car keys instead, I'm just wondering if anyone's been crazy enough to try this.

Slightly off topic, I have met a man who was shot twice with .22 LR out of a rifle at close range, and it knocked the thunder out of him, but he easily survived it with no scarring or lasting effects. He liked to tell that story and show where the bullets entered him, and they were right at COM. The ice pick as analogy seems about right to me.

 

[blacksan]

I responded to a suicide several years ago that was commited with a 22 LR revolver and lead round nose standard velocity ammo. The entrance wound was left temple and the autopsy showed a text book mushroom of the bullet that lodged againt the right temple. Is 22 LR effective? Would I count on it as my primary? Yes! No! No matter what caliber you use shot placement is the key and with that in mind any caliber can get the job done. What most people don't understand is that mind set or grit will keep the wounded person mobile until they bleed out if the shot is not placed in the portion of the brain shuting down your system instantly. People that are determined can do a tremendous amount of damage before they give up the fight.

 

[rocky]

I carry my NAA .22 for close work , last resort. As Betty so eloquently, it's a nose picker. I know somone who was shot in the leg w/ a .22 from a rifle. I consider the .22 a last resort weapon, but better than beating someone with a loaf of bread.

 

[Kentucky]

There was a true case of a man in Alaska who was out hiking and had a .22 long barrel revolver with him. He was suddenly jumped and chased by a Grizzly bear. He ran up onto a small mound and knew he had no chance whatsoever of coming out of this alive in any form. He pulled out the only defense he had, the .22, fired a shot at the bear as it was now only 10-15 feet away . The bear IMMEDIATELY dropped to the ground . The guy then proceeds to place some more shots to the bear. The bear was either dead or dead for all practical purposes allowing the man to live and depart the area.
Apparently, according to authorities in the area , the .22 must have hit a perfect shot at the base of the skull or severed the spinal cord or something crucial putting him down so hard and fast.
Yes a super, super lucky shot , but it can be done with 'the ice-pick bullet'

 

[acparmed]

The only problem with a .22 as I see it is, that old proverb, shot placement. If as a last resort you have the option to put one in the brain pan, preferably the eye socket, it will perform wonders in it's stopping power.

Other than that it may just give you enough time to deliver 5 or 6 rounds COM for you to get out of Dodge.

 

[QKShooter]

The Lowly .22 Rimfire

I brought this same topic/subject up once on another forum.
Good thread Euclidean.
Here are a few answers that I got back then.

>>>> .22 rim-fire ammunition is less reliable than center-fire ammo.

>>>> While more people in the U.S. have been KILLED with the little .22 (than any other caliber) were they STOPPED as a deadly threat right away???

>>>> There are somewhat more feed & function problems with most .22 pistols than with pistols that operate with more available "energy oomph" to operate the feed/ejection system...like the larger caliber pistols.

Me personally...my opinion is that 99.95% of the people in this world don't want to be shot with a bullet of ANY caliber.

Getting shot & wounded with a .22 will send most folks on a trip to the hospital the same as getting wounded with a .45 & a trip to ANY hospital with a gunshot wound will will have the cops waiting there for you to find out how it happened.

I would be MIGHTY AFRAID of a shooter with a high quality .22 pistol & High Quality .22 Rim-fire Ammunition who has practiced perfect shot placement.

I don't think that most folks realize just how FAST a semi~auto pistol will feed cycle eject unless they have actually TRIED pulling that trigger as fast as they are able to pull it.
With my S&W model 41
I cannot physically pull the trigger faster than that pistol will cycle.

I don't know if you can imagine 10 shots that basically SOUND like ONE gun shot & with almost no felt recoil.
That is how fast a GOOD .22 semi~auto will fully cycle.

So....10 lightning fast easy head shots & then a fast reload & 10 more. Scary Thought!:gah:

I've been shooting (mostly pistols) for longer than some of our forum members have been alive.
I will tell you this.
If there is ever a "total societal breakdown" where I have to "Get Out Of Dodge" & travel light.
I am packing one of my S&W Model 41s & 15 extra mags (loaded with "Match Grade Ammo" as my Primary Handgun.
My reasoning is that if the target is the size of a United States Quarter or larger...I can hit it (multiple times) just by looking at it with the S&W Model 41
I can EASILY carry 150 rounds in loaded magazines & another few hundred still in boxes.

So......I'll end with this. If a defensive shooter owns a .22 pistol that is 100% reliable & they buy high quality Match Grade ammo & they honestly feel that they can stay "Cool As A Cucumber" and hit accurately with it for H.S. Only Shot placement...Go ahead & carry it!
They will be well served & have absolutely no "felt recoil" to contend with as an added PLUS.

I (for sure) never want 8 or 10 "machine gunned" .22 caliber bullets coming at my precious head.:dead:

As you can see in the above photo...the Model 41 is NOT ideal for daily carry. It is heavy due to the weight "out front" ~ It is a "Tack Driver" pistol though & that front sight is a "hang up" & the thumb safety is real, real small.
Mine have custom thinned grips (shaped to my hand) & without the thumb rest.
If I can get my camera working I'll get on a pic of mine.

But, a best quality .22...like a super reliable & accurate .22 Beretta pistol would be much better to carry.
If a person decided that they wanted to carry a .22
Buy the HIGHEST QUALITY ammo though & make sure that pistol functions "like a champ" & Practice Practice Practice your shooting skills & your "CALMING ZEN" under high stress !!!

 

[Redneck Repairs]

Having personaly been shot with a .22 ( out of a colt woodsman ) i can attest that it is not an experiace to repeat. that being said i have also worked cases where .22s were used on folks , it is no fight stopper either , qk makes good points on facial shots tho IMHO and in my experiance fiew if any have the ability under stress to place thier rounds as described . it seems to me that the effectiveness of the .22 ( as with all pistol calibers to a degree ) depends on the mindset of the person shot , in the " fla FBI shooting " the suspects suffered fatal wounds and kept fighting , others fall down if shot with a bb gun . I personaly will carry larger calibers than the 22 - .32 group, that being said a .22 still beats throwing rocks or grapeling with an agressor

 

[Kompact9]

Several years ago, a co-worker hobbled in with a sheepish grin on his face. It seems he had been out hunting squirrels with a .22 single shot rifle using .22 short ammo. You guessed it...an accidental discharge that went through the boot top, his foot, and lodged in the sole of the boot. He said the only reason it didn't go through the sole was that he was standing on a rock and that was what stopped the bullet. Properly placed, a "little" .22 can do a lot more than you think...

 

[P95Carry]

QK sums this up very well - not sure tho re the analogy of ice pick, tho it has the right ''sound'' to it!

A swinging ice pick impacting the right (?wrong?!) place is sure gonna make for one big world of hurt - and in fact would/could stop someone pretty quick.

As ever the humble .22 sits in a world of its own - rimfire so on balance less reliable but as said - shot placement will totally determine outcome - or speed thereof. Last resort, it sure as heck beats zilch!

I think back to my rabbit hunting days - subsonic HP's with suppressor - 50 yards - ''thwop'' - very dead bunny!! Always reminded me of the ''non toy'' nature of the round.

Did I ever post pics of tests I did way way back? I fired various rounds into modelling clay and then cut blocks in half - results were quite interesting. Got the pics, somewhere.

 

[CLASS3NH]

I may be very mistaken, but I believe years ago, that when a "hit" was done on certain Mob gangster members, it was done with a High Standard Sportking or Victor type, with a supressor on the end of the muzzle. Close and quiet. Either way, I'm not willing to stand and take a few rounds from anything, including a 22LR caliber.
Remington Yellow jackets work VERY well BTW.

Here's some very interesting information about the Underrated and underappreciated 22 LR
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/rimfire1.html

ALSO..the link here about Marine and SEAL teams utilizing a High Standard Supressed HD model in their weapon of choice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individual_weapons_of_the_U.S._Armed_Forces

 

[Free American]

Regardless of what it is that caused the hole...

People don't like to leak!!!!

 

[Tangle]

"With my S&W model 41 I cannot physically pull the trigger faster than that pistol will cycle.[\i]

I don't know if you can imagine 10 shots that basically SOUND like ONE gun shot & with almost no felt recoil.
That is how fast a GOOD .22 semi~auto will fully cycle.

So....10 lightning fast easy head shots & then a fast reload & 10 more.

I (for sure) never want 8 or 10 "machine gunned" .22 caliber bullets coming at my precious head."

I'm a little confused by the speed implications that a .22 can be fired faster because of it's rapid cycle rate. Can't guns always cycle faster than we can pull the trigger? A 9mm Glock 18 can run something like 900 rounds a minute and it doesn't have cycle problems. To shoot a .22 at that rate would require pulling the trigger every 66 milliseconds. There's no way a human can approach that speed. The point is we aren't limited by the cycle time of the gun but rather by how fast we can pull the trigger.

When I took my Edged Weapons course, the ice pick was described as one of the most dangerous edged weapons. The technique is to insert and churn. Supposedly produces a devasting wound.

 

[QKShooter]

Good Catch Tangle

Yes, that's true Tangle & I probably should have been more clear.
I was sort of meaning that with the S&W 41 and in .22 LR it's possible (for me) to pull the trigger as fast as is humanly possible & still have all ten shots be viable and extremely accurate head shots. The pistol barely moves.

For accurate defensive shooting most folks are also limited to as fast as they can pull the trigger In Combination With as well as they can can stay on target.

 

[Redneck Repairs]

i would also like to note that a " hit" on someone by the mob , seals , mossad , or whoeaver is a far cry from a slef defense situation , you can no more compair them than you can compair the practice of headshooting beef at slaughter houses to hunting

 

[ann]

i would also like to note that a " hit" on someone by the mob , seals , mossad , or whoeaver is a far cry from a slef defense situation , you can no more compair them than you can compair the practice of headshooting beef at slaughter houses to hunting

I agree 100%

I know of the NAA .22 being used for "hits":dead: by gangs in the recent past and their use has been very effective .

I also know of the "CIA" useing the .22lr for "hits" the pic of the bullet is of a "CIA" issue .22lr teleshot brass exploding bullet used in the 1970s and loaded/mfg by COLT.

Were the .22 rounds useful for out of the shadows surprise killings IMO YES very.

Was the .22 ever used for 1st choice self defense I think not.:hand1:

In the "hit ":stups: you pick the bullet placement in self defense it is a crap shoot at best IMO.

I think it boils down to this FOR ME. Do I want to be shot by a .22 HELL NO! Do I want to use the .22 to save my life HELL NO!

 

[Redneck Repairs]

But Ann i think we BOTH agree a .22 would beat hell out of a broken beer bottle in the hand when the excritory substance contacted the rotary air circulation device wouldnt we ??

 

[ann]

Forgot the .22 TELESHOT PICS:blink:

IMO...I like the .22 round much more than a glass bottle for SD and carry a .22mag NAA myself for LDE surprise social work:nutkick:

but my 642 is my main friend:comeandgetsome:

LDE= last ditch effort:stups:

 

[Redneck Repairs]

lol LDE = GOM ( Get Off Me ) Personaly i belive this is the time to drag out the " Nucluar chiwawa" ie the largest concealable handgun you can LOL i have a 905 tarus revolver stoked with +p for this role ( i know its bigger than the kahr i have admited carrying elsewhere on this forum but its not subject to front end disconector strikes either ) a snub revolver is hard to beat in this role where you may be in contact with the agressor

 

[CLASS3NH]

lol LDE = GOM ( Get Off Me ) Personaly i belive this is the time to drag out the " Nucluar chiwawa" ie the largest concealable handgun you can LOL i have a 905 tarus revolver stoked with +p for this role ( i know its bigger than the kahr i have admited carrying elsewhere on this forum but its not subject to front end disconector strikes either ) a snub revolver is hard to beat in this role where you may be in contact with the agressor

BTW, in 1981, while working at a store named Colman's Sporting Goods in Danvers Ma, I sold a FTL Auto Nine 22LR pistol (now known as the Wilkinson Sherry Pistol) to a Boston Police Detective who is one of my closest friends. I owned one, and knew it worked like a champ, so my friend Joe (the Boston PD Detective ) bought one, based on my advice.
While Joe was waiting in line in a Charlestown Ma bank, two thugs came in and attempted to hold the place up. Joe, stood aside, identified himself, drew that little FTL 22 and proceeded to put "two in the hat" to both of the BGs. (BTW, the two BGs pointed their weapons at Joe, which, to him, was more than enough to place him in harms' way) One went down for the count, and the other currently is a veggie til this day. Joe has since retired, BUT he continues to thank me for selling him that little gun, and possibly saving his life, and others around him.
BTW, I suggested he (Joe) use Remington Yellow Jackets in the gun, cuz it worked so very well for me. and YES.. this is NOT a BS story :biggrin2: Just wanted to share a little first hand info on the 22 LR cartridge, and it's stopping power, utilizing the right ammo :biggrin2:

 

[OD*]

Can't guns always cycle faster than we can pull the trigger?

Not always, Patrick E. "Machine gun Kelley" can pull the trigger faster than a Benelli M1 Super 90's disconnect can reset at 13 hundredths of a second.