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Discussion Starter #1
Tourist oughtta love this.

I have had an idea for a few days now about adding one more piece to my handgun collection, something tottally unlike that which I normally prefer.

I've researched the concept before in various ways. Maybe if I tell you what I mean you can reccommend something or tell me what you use for the purpose.

What I'm essentially looking for is what I am calling a "travel" gun. I want something that I can use as a solitary carry piece that would be easy to live with when I am isolated from my normal surroundings.

What I mean by that, is that here in the relative safety of my hometown, is that I know the laws, the procedures, where to go, where not to go, etc. It's classic home field advantage. I also know that if I go off and fire 50 rounds I can immediately go home and clean the thing off and spit shine it.

However, circumstances arise when I have to go other places where I don't have that edge. I'm looking into something that I can use that is "disposable" in the sense that it doesn't cost more than my car's insurance policy in the event some overzealous LEO decides to add it to his collection.

I want something immediately replaceable, not costly, but serviceable. It would also be nice if it was light weight. I also want it to fire a catridge that's reasonably effective without making a light show.

For this purpose, I'm considering a semiautomatic. The reasons why are that they are easy to clean, many are rugged, and although I personally do not think I will ever be in some circumstance I'll need to reload or shoot more than 5 or 6 catridges out of a handgun, I've never planned that way. I rely on my New York reload ideology normally. But if there's no BUG that idea just doesn't float.

They also have the happy circumstance of being easy to disable quickly. Simply remove the slide and take it with you. There's no law against carrying a small piece of metal that lacks a sharp edge. That I know of anyway. Even if they steal the mini safe they just get a useless frame.

Ideally, I'd like something light and thin not much longer than 6" if at all possible. I'm also trying to see if I can get something in .45 ACP. If not I'll stick with 9x19. I want something I can buy ammunition for in a rural Missouri gas station or in Fort Stockton. No I'm not kidding.

It strikes me that the almost perfect gun, for its quality, form factor, reliability, etc. is the SIG P245. It is a bit longer than I want but that's acceptable. The main problem I have with it is that I don't view a nice $600+ gun as "disposable". A used one would be peachy and I'll keep an eye out, but used 245s don't come along very often, and the 220 is just too big. CDNN never has used 245s in their catalog, and ordnance outsellers never has CPO 245s in stock either.

Another one that comes to mind is the Glock 30 and the 36. Damn you Glock for your unnatural feeling grip angles and tendency to point funny or else one of these would foot the bill very nicely. If I decided to go with the Glock type pistol I'd get that XD I want. But then I'd be forced to use another caliber, and don't even mention .45 GAP chambered XDs. The catridge is still a special order and not common as dirt. I must have a common as dirt chambering.

To be fair to the Glock, I've wondered if maybe I outfitted one with some aftermarket sleeve grips if that would fix the problem. I know putting Hogue grips on all my other guns has made a huge difference in the way it points and handles. But I'm wary of buying a gun that doesn't feel right and then trying to retrofit it.

A third option is the Taurus PT-145 Pro. This may actually be the answer. It's not something I'm going to take any pride in owning, but it's cheap, common, and from what I've read it's not sexy but it's stone cold reliable. Some people complain about the trigger but I can live with a funky trigger on the gun I use for this purpose. This gun also has something I can appreciate that its more expensive kin don't in its very design: It hides very well for its size. It's just something about the way they packaged it. I've handled the 9mm version and found it to be acceptable but not exciting, but the one thing that always stuck with me was how concealable it was for its size. The series also has a reputation for being more accurate than it has a right to be, and the Pro editions solve the problems that come to mind when you think of the earlier Taurus pistols.

What else is there? If you own one of these guns, what did you think about it? I know Bud for example had a Glock 36 that was awful. I've researched this market a bit previously out of simple curiousity. I'll try to go handle a couple of these this weekend.

They all seem a bit too large too, except for the Taurus. They're all interesting but none of them grab me. Of course that's the whole point in a way... :biggrin: The Glock represents the budget I want to work on the best. The Taurus... I don't know it just seems too cheap but then again a lot of cheap pistols are actually pretty good. I'm Taurus neutral. I don't like them nor hate them.

I realize that .40 and 9x19 give me a lot more options, but I don't really feel like starting with .40 S&W. I actually do trust 9x19 as a defensive round but I want to see if I can try something completely new at the same time. I'm liking my big bore revolver so maybe I'll like a big bore semi-auto too. But if the market bears no fruit I'll return to my fixation on the XD series.
 

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An Auto for Euclidian?

Euclidean said:
It strikes me that the almost perfect gun, for its quality, form factor, reliability, etc. is the SIG P245. It is a bit longer than I want but that's acceptable. The main problem I have with it is that I don't view a nice $600+ gun as "disposable". A used one would be peachy and I'll keep an eye out, but used 245s don't come along very often.....Another one that comes to mind is the Glock 30 and the 36. Damn you Glock for your unnatural feeling grip angles and tendency to point funny or else one of these would foot the bill very nicely. If I decided to go with the Glock type pistol I'd get that XD I want. But then I'd be forced to use another caliber, and don't even mention .45 GAP chambered XDs. The catridge is still a special order and not common as dirt. I must have a common as dirt chambering.

To be fair to the Glock, I've wondered if maybe I outfitted one with some aftermarket sleeve grips if that would fix the problem. I know putting Hogue grips on all my other guns has made a huge difference in the way it points and handles. But I'm wary of buying a gun that doesn't feel right and then trying to retrofit it.
Euc, you should run out RIGHT NOW and buy the August issue of COMBAT HANDGUNS, I just got mine in the mail so it ought to be on newsstands. It has an article that may shed some light on your situation. Now, ready to drool? I got a used P245 for the trade of a POS "JAM-A-MATIC" ParaOrd P10 + $100 cash. Best deal I ever made. The P245 is now my standard carry gun drawn from a Blade Tech IWB. My secondary gun is a Glock M27 40 with M22 high caps for spares.

If you have problems with the Glock ergonomics may I suggest a slight modification to the grips by ROBAR out in Arizona. You send them the gun fram and a tracing of your hand. They fill the space behind the grip on the backstrap with a resin and SHAVE down the grip to fit your hand. I did this with a Glock 30 I owned and it was great.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That's not a bad idea Ex, but I'd rather compromise on the caliber and just get the gun that already fits my hand. I kind of wish more people would take Smith and Wesson's approach with the interchangeable backstraps.

I will go pick that up. Truthfully I seldom read gun mags. I read one once every 3 months. I'm about due.
 

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To fit the purposes that you have mentioned howzabout a REVO ??? Say--a Taurus.Say--in .38 Special. Maybe even one of them light weight jobs. Most small Revo's come apart (cylinder comes off) with the removal of just one tiny screw. Can pick up the ammo anywhere. They're guaranteed for life. You could probably pick up a used one for pocket change. I know it aint a 45 but----??
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thought about it RSSZ but I already have something like that. I was looking for something that was still fairly small but with a longer sight radius.

A lightweight wheelie would work, but it would cost too much for what I want it for.
 

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Ya got one the Ruger .... But a glock or xd would be fine easy replacable ... now on the later framed glocks they have finger grooves and the hogue slip ons wont work... As you all ready know i wont say buy a glock 36
 

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Seems like the gun you are describing is a Kel-Tec P-11. Its a 12 round DAO that is lightweight, reliable and inexpensive -- around $250 or so. Its smaller than a Glock 26 and has a lifetime warranty. Its only 9x19, but +P is no problem.
 

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DDGator said:
Seems like the gun you are describing is a Kel-Tec P-11. Its a 12 round DAO that is lightweight, reliable and inexpensive -- around $250 or so. Its smaller than a Glock 26 and has a lifetime warranty. Its only 9x19, but +P is no problem.
You beat me to it. That was exactly what I was thinking. Possible that great minds think alike? :D

the event some overzealous LEO decides to add it to his collection.
Is this a problem where you live? I would be more worried about losing the weapon in the event that you have to shoot someone, and it goes into evidence for several years. I seriously doubt a law enforcement officer is going to just decide he is going to steal your weapon. In fact I can't even remember the last time I heard of one even accused of doing this. I hope that's not how you really think we operate.
 

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Euc,

Life is full of compromises, disappointments and ethanol fuel. Take Beyonce' and me. I shower her with cards, letters and flowers, and what do I get from her? Just this lousy restraining order. Aw, the perils of life.

I have the same problem. How to protect my butt and save a few dollars for the really important things, like chrome and Colts. And like you, but with a fully intact spleen and better looks, I chose the Glock, as well.

And there's nothing wrong with the .40 SW as a combat calibre. They shoot flat, they hit hard. Golden Sabers are even pretty to look at.

I've always liked snubs for clandestine carry, but the Glock 27 I chose for barrel length has a very short grip. I bought a Glock 23 magazine and a grip extender for primary carry, and keep the two shortie magazines for back up.

Last night about zero-three-thirty, one of the dogs heard something and made a ruckus. I always take a pistol, a flashlight and my HMO card to all gunfights. This time, believe it or not, I grabbed the Glock.

As usual, it was the water softener, and I told the pup I scared the big man away. The dog curled up beside me on the pillow, and I tossed the Glock onto my crappy black Harley T-shirt next to the bed and my equally crappy Wigwam socks.

I hate that pistol. Plastic 2x4 *grumble, grumble*
 

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Discussion Starter #10
S.O. Interceptor said:
You beat me to it. That was exactly what I was thinking. Possible that great minds think alike? :D

Is this a problem where you live? I would be more worried about losing the weapon in the event that you have to shoot someone, and it goes into evidence for several years. I seriously doubt a law enforcement officer is going to just decide he is going to steal your weapon. In fact I can't even remember the last time I heard of one even accused of doing this. I hope that's not how you really think we operate.
My grandfather once told me a story of a Missouri highway patrolman who in the late 50s and early 60s used to stop cars driven by blacks and confiscate things. It's not right, but what are you going to do? Spend weeks in jail and then get caught up in a court where it's your word against a white police officer with a rascist judge on the bench?

Far more likely now is the scenario where you are driving through a jurisdiction where what the law says is immaterial. The Lago Vista P.D. is notorious in particular for confiscation. I know three people who have lost their guns to this department. Standard operating procedure for these guys is once you tell them you're a CHL holder, they ask for the gun and you don't get it back because that's illegal on their route no matter what the state law actually says.

They're probably all in an evidence locker rotting somewhere, but none of them received any kind of receipt or documentation of any sort when their gun was confiscated. Or so they claim at least but it makes me wonder. None of the three had gotten their gun back after as long as a year. From their perspectives the gun is basically gone regardless of its actual fate.

Even in my own county I met one man who had a vintage Smith and Wesson confiscated. He had the cylinder removed, and it was wrapped up in a towel, under the back seat, covered with camping gear. Yet he was allowed to keep his hunting rifle. This particular gentleman however is also a Bubba from the word go and that'll get you in trouble every time.

I'm also aware that's only one side of the story in each case, and all of these guys lack personality and tact. I understand the last thing some patrolman needs is me making an ass of myself and pissing him off after he's had one hellacious day. The two times I have been stopped I was all smiles and sir sandwiches and I didn't have a bit of trouble.

Now for the most part the city police here I've met at least in passing during the football season. Those guys are a bunch of hardasses who wouldn't do something like that. For Pete's sake they volunteered to serve as security at the football games and I know none of them want to be on duty on a Friday night when they don't have to be. That's one place where I feel quite safe even though I'm unarmed because I know there's between 6 and 14 officers on the premises who won't tolerate any horse hockey.

I really wish we didn't have to declare to officers in Texas. Losing a gun automatically for obeying the law just because you were in the wrong place sucks. I'd rather just give up the gun instead of going up on charges. The gun costs less than court. I'm sure most of them wind up in evidence lockers and not in someone's hands, but the feeling of satisfaction of taking a gun away from someone just because you can must tempt some people, especially if the CHL holder was being very unpleasant to you right after you'd just come off a domestic disturbance call.

My local FFL recommended to me last time I saw him that I need to get a car gun if I ever go through certain places. He said certain departments give him lots of repeat buyers.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Bud White said:
Ya got one the Ruger ....
Too darn thick. I have to admit it is light, but the P series just does not carry well for a lot of people.

I'm not even committed to the ideal anyway. I'm just kicking it around. Keltec P11? You know I've never actually seen that model in person. I've seen its little brothers but not that particular model.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Possible, but it prints on me like crazy. It requires a jacket or overshirt. I guess a holster that didn't carry it so high would be much better. It also doesn't carry well because of the strange way the gun's weight is centered. In jeans I don't think I'd have a bit of trouble carrying it at all, but I'm thinking of something I could carry in my slacks.

At 32 ounces unloaded, plus a whopping 17 catridges, it gets too heavy for what I want it to do. Normally I like heavier because heavy gun = less felt recoil, but this is more of an idea of finding something unlike what I already have. I even like the Ruger look and design but it does have that "brick" effect when it comes to trying to carry it.

I've tried to see if I could make the gun work for carry and it just doesn't. It really requires an OWB strong side holster and I don't find that to be a good way to carry.

My similar size revolvers have a that nice curved handle which makes all the difference in the world. The gun curves like a banana which makes carrying these large guns easier. This gun however is shaped like an "L". It's also a good 8 inches from the front sight to the rear of the slide. It's just too big.

Edit: And it rattles like crazy too. This gun makes way too much noise to be carried for long periods of time.
 

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Old slabsides weighs more without ammo i understand some people dont like a heavy gun though ..

I just dont know about kel tec only 2 people i know that had them hated them

Hard to pick a cheep gun anymore
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The Kel Tecs aren't really something I care for. I do think the idea of a 9mm Kel Tec is a good one though. They're a love em or hate em proposition I think.

I'm not even committed to this idea yet so there's no rush. Something like an AMT backup only not a piece of junk is basically what I'm jonesin' for I guess.
 

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I have a P-11 that runs perfectly. I paid 190 bucks for it. It has the IWB clip on it which makes it possible to carry the piece IWB without a holster. Sort of like the Clipdraw. I carried it today under a tee shirt.

So far I've shot about 400 rounds of various loads through it with no problems.
 

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Euc? How about a SW40VE? New, they're pretty rerasonable, and used? well darn right cheap. I got to handle one this past week aat my dearler frriend's sho[. They feel good, stainless slide, something the Glock doesn't have. To me, the grip frame feels better than the Glock IMHO. I know, S&W had trouble with them in the past, but if you gat a good ramp job on it, you still have a weapon that's light, cheap, and a hi cap mag. They're about the very same size as a Glock 23, and used brings in about 235.00 to 245.00 on the retail..
 

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Kel-Tec Handguns?

Euclidean said:
Too darn thick. I have to admit it is light, but the P series just does not carry well for a lot of people.

I'm not even committed to the ideal anyway. I'm just kicking it around. Keltec P11? You know I've never actually seen that model in person. I've seen its little brothers but not that particular model.
Okay, I admit it, I'm biased against Kel-Tec handguns. I think they just "feel" cheap and the trigger pulls are gawdawful. Now I have had in my collection that neat little folding carbine the Sub-2000 and I was very impressed with that. But I'd never own one of their handguns.
 

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S&W Sigma?

CLASS3NH said:
Euc? How about a SW40VE? New, they're pretty rerasonable, and used? well darn right cheap. I got to handle one this past week aat my dearler frriend's sho[. They feel good, stainless slide, something the Glock doesn't have. To me, the grip frame feels better than the Glock IMHO. I know, S&W had trouble with them in the past, but if you gat a good ramp job on it, you still have a weapon that's light, cheap, and a hi cap mag. They're about the very same size as a Glock 23, and used brings in about 235.00 to 245.00 on the retail..
Is this the Sigma? If it is, there is a reason for all the hate publicity it's gotten in the gun community and for my money the Tennifer Slide on a Glock trumps SS all day long!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Honestly, I'd take the Glock it was designed after long before I'd get a Sigma.

I'm sure the new ones are better but they have no appeal to me at all. I held one not too long ago and wasn't curious enough to fire it.

See this is basically the problem. I'm curious if such a gun exists in this caliber that's not a Glock, and it looks like the only things out there are either too expensive or too cheap for my intended purpose. I need to find a Taurus owner and see if I can trade a "Hey want to shoot my..." for a "Could I fire your Taurus?" sometime.

It looks like I'll just have to go with another caliber or wait for a deal if I went through with this. Really I have no opposition to .40 S&W per se, but I'm thinking I need to stick to a caliber that I know is sickeningly common. .40 isn't exactly rare but 9mm and .45 ACP are much more common by comparison.
 
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