[BikerRN]

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While reading "Combat Handguns" I came across an article by Walt Rauch that gives a good argument for lasers. He is quoting none other than Jim Cirrilo in his article. The discussion is on seeing your sights.


quote:
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"As far as obtaining a classic sight picture, Jim said: "In law enforcement, your problem isn't at your front sight, it's in the background." He explained, "As a police officer , you're obligated to make sure that the person you're shooting is the one you should be shooting. You can't let God sort them out." Also, "...if you're looking at your front sight you can't see that some poor guy is pulling a black wallet out of his back pocket-you think he's pulling out a gun."
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During a lethal encounter we, as humans, are "hard-wired" to look at our threat. We need to be able to see what the threat is doing, and lasers allow you to do this better than looking at your front sight. You are already looking at the threat. So, if the threat has a little red dot on his or her chest, since you are already looking at them, it stands to reason that you would be faster in getting your shot off than if you went to the traditional sight picture. Also, unless you are in direct sunlight it stands to reason that you will see your laser dot easier too.

Lasers allow you to see where your bullets are going and allow you to devote more of your focus on the actual threat. What you thought was a threat may in fact turn out to not be a threat. I'd rather spend the extra money for a laser in hopes that I don't have to use them than to need them and not have them. I also want to know that my bullets are going to strike their intended target.

No, lasers won't magically put the bullets you fire in the X Ring if you jerk and mash the trigger. You still need to manipulate the trigger in a proper manner. What a laser does is aide you in putting the bullets where they need to go. Funny, I think that's what sights do too.

Maybe I'm over-estimating the cost, but I go forth during my daily routine with the thought that not only does every bullet I fire have a lawyer attatched to it, but also that each bullet will cost me $50,000. That means I need to be accurate and right in what I choose to do.

Just some food for thought. Take care and stay safe.

Biker

 

[EvilMonk]

It also gives the BG "one last chance" to drop his weapon.

I know that drawing is the last thing that comes in Escalation of Force, but if they drop their weapon, I can't fire (and neither can you legally, if witnesses are present or not).

It would be very intimidating to have a laser on you, I would think.

I am not advocating "Intimidation by Assault with a Deadly Weapon", no way, no how, not ever. I'm just saying that if someone is threatening you with a weapon, advancing towards you, and gives every intention of applying Deadly Force to your person, a laser might help De-escalate the situation.

 

[Ram Rod]

It also gives the BG "one last chance" to drop his weapon.

I know that drawing is the last thing that comes in Escalation of Force, but if they drop their weapon, I can't fire (and neither can you legally, if witnesses are present or not).

It would be very intimidating to have a laser on you, I would think.

I am not advocating "Intimidation by Assault with a Deadly Weapon", no way, no how, not ever. I'm just saying that if someone is threatening you with a weapon, advancing towards you, and gives every intention of applying Deadly Force to your person, a laser might help De-escalate the situation.

Funny. My wife mentioned some sort of 'intimidation factor' when she got her CTC laser grips. Personally, I think that's a perception that could cost you your life. In a lethal encounter....you should be the last one and maybe the only one to see the red dot on target. Tools. I have yet to take apart a fastener by threatening it with wrenches.

 

[Saber]

I used the CT grips on a rental and I found them to be quite effective on a j-frame. With my diminished vision consistent with age, I will purchase a set at some point. I’ve been holding off in hopes that CT will the update LG-305 with hard sides.

 

[Rugergirl]

A few of my handguns have them, a couple don't. For me I find it doesn't matter either way. They don't make me a better shot, and I seldom use them at the range. I use a front sight picture for alignment but by the time the trigger breaks I'm already looking at the target. I guess that explains why I never see the muzzle flash that hubby complains about?
As far as a tool, like any other they can fail. They may be more of a psychological deterrant to the BG, if he sees the red dot. They are good for those with diminished vision, but then again so are a good pair of glasses.

 

[Divebum47]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While reading "Combat Handguns" I came across an article by Walt Rauch that gives a good argument for lasers. He is quoting none other than Jim Cirrilo in his article. The discussion is on seeing your sights.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As far as obtaining a classic sight picture, Jim said: "In law enforcement, your problem isn't at your front sight, it's in the background." He explained, "As a police officer , you're obligated to make sure that the person you're shooting is the one you should be shooting. You can't let God sort them out." Also, "...if you're looking at your front sight you can't see that some poor guy is pulling a black wallet out of his back pocket-you think he's pulling out a gun."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



During a lethal encounter we, as humans, are "hard-wired" to look at our threat. We need to be able to see what the threat is doing, and lasers allow you to do this better than looking at your front sight. You are already looking at the threat. So, if the threat has a little red dot on his or her chest, since you are already looking at them, it stands to reason that you would be faster in getting your shot off than if you went to the traditional sight picture. Also, unless you are in direct sunlight it stands to reason that you will see your laser dot easier too.

Lasers allow you to see where your bullets are going and allow you to devote more of your focus on the actual threat. What you thought was a threat may in fact turn out to not be a threat. I'd rather spend the extra money for a laser in hopes that I don't have to use them than to need them and not have them. I also want to know that my bullets are going to strike their intended target.

No, lasers won't magically put the bullets you fire in the X Ring if you jerk and mash the trigger. You still need to manipulate the trigger in a proper manner. What a laser does is aide you in putting the bullets where they need to go. Funny, I think that's what sights do too.

Maybe I'm over-estimating the cost, but I go forth during my daily routine with the thought that not only does every bullet I fire have a lawyer attatched to it, but also that each bullet will cost me $50,000. That means I need to be accurate and right in what I choose to do.

Just some food for thought. Take care and stay safe.

Biker

Good read and thanks. I'd go one step further and suggest that when you practice with a laser sight, practice also without the laser sight. Becoming too dependent upon the laser turns it into a crutch instead of a tool. And Mr. Murphy just may be on the BG's side of the argument - he just may make sure your batteries are dead when you most need the laser.

Just my two centavos.

 

[ArmyCop]

Good read Biker. I have had CT grips on previous duty handguns. Since working for Dept of Veterans Affairs now I have to use only what's issued and can't add, modify or whatever to any of their equipment - so no lasers for me on duty anymore.

My current CCW's are S&W's CS45 - no practical lasers available for it; Taurus PT145 - I have a Rail LED\Laser for it; and a S&W Md 642 snubby - Crimson Trace makes grips for this as well as Lasermax's laser setup - but I haven't had any extra $$ to add either yet.

Thanks for posting that article.

 

[paul45]

I have CT's on 2 J-frames and they work outstandingly! Took some practice to get used to them but they are the BOMB!

 

[hogdaddy]

I prefer POINT shooting over lassers anyday & Practice practice & more
PRACTICE JMO ;-)
H/D

 

[Lewis128]

Tools. I have yet to take apart a fastener by threatening it with wrenches.

+1 As usual. :hand10:

 

[EdC]

I've had them for a G19(Lasermax rod guide), a P3AT (CT), and a Walther PPS (Armalaser). Took them off the G19 and Walther. I found it useful for the P3AT because it's so tiny I need help pointing the thing. As far as the G19 and Walther, the lasers just got in my way.

I thinkanother reason why I kept the CT's on the P3AT is because the Lasermax and the Armalaser required more than just gripping the gun to turn them on. Not so with the CT.

 

[kpw]

My biggest concern with lasers is most people that I see using them are very slow to aquire their targets and shoot. Although it's more prevelent in newer shooters, I've seen some old hands that suffered the same maladies with them. The first round seems to get off ok but after that, many shooters take too much time trying to get the dot back where they want it.

 

[threefeathers]

Although I'm still remarkably handsome, I'm getting older. (The alternative nearly happened many times) Like many I eschewed the use of lasers as contraptions. However, I've been completely turned around and I have a CT on my Home G-19.
I've recently had the opportunity to do much training with Mas Ayoob, Marty Hays, cornered cat, Don Stalhnecker, and others at the Firearms Academy of Seattle. We did a fair amount of dark room work with flashlights and lasers. I've been able to run throught the MOUT CQB course at Ft. Huachuca and I have incorporated what I have learned with the CQB knowledge I have.
Putting it bluntly, in an area that is dimly lighted, the laser is a force multiplier! It allows a person to pie a room, make a shot from a corner with very minimum exposure to themselves.
Rob Pincus has a great DVD on this and one of the other combat shooters of some repute shows some good technique on the C T advertisement.

 

[Ticman]

Funny. My wife mentioned some sort of 'intimidation factor' when she got her CTC laser grips. Personally, I think that's a perception that could cost you your life. In a lethal encounter....you should be the last one and maybe the only one to see the red dot on target. Tools. I have yet to take apart a fastener by threatening it with wrenches.

A fastener doesn't have a brain either. There have been cases where a BG gave up upon seeing the little red dot. If I ever have to pull on a BG and he sees the red dot and drops his weapon, gives up, or runs away, I figure I'm ahead of the game. Doesn't this happen most often in SD scenario's? (you know, no shots fired)

I do agree though if you get one you need some real training on how to use the "tool". I got some and it really helped me. Oh, and I can point shoot and sighted shoot as well.

 

[PackinJP]

That was an interesting read, thanks. I have a Lasermax installed in my Glock, but not the others. I do completely see the intimidating portion of the laser, but I sure wouldnt even hardly turn it on when practicing, dont want to rely on it. Truth be told, only reason I bought it in the first place was it was a really good deal and I didnt think the dude selling knew what it was worth! And in home defense, theres nothing more intimidating than racking a round home in a nice pump shotgun anyway!

 

[mercop]

If you have a light on your pistol do you wait to see the light before pulling the trigger? I imagine most will say sometimes. That is the issue I have with lasers. Why are you putting them on your gun?

Some have already said for intimidation. If the person is not intimidated by the gun pointed at them do you think the laser will intimidate them? Never count on anything to intimidate someone. Watching for or counting on a reaction encourages two things...tunnel vision and standing still. Humans like to stand still to look at things.

During our last combative pistol course in Indy I had a return student. I think this was his fourth class with MCS. Everything else has been edged weapons but like many he was a dyed in the wool gun guy beforehand. When it came time for the combative pistol class he wore a full size 1911 on both hips, his primary had a laser site on it.

All drills were done at very close range in reaction to visual cues. You could see him hesitate even at the closest distances in order to see the laser on the target.

When we went from cardboard to small balloons on several targets he would get glued in one spot in order to take his time to use the laser to pop the balloons. When using the other 1911 he did not have these problems.

Instead of laser I suggest more realistic training and ammunition. If bolting things on your gun made you a better shooter lots of AR owners would be snipers.- George

 

[gasmitty]

I've tried a laser on a borrowed USP during an informal IDPA match. It didn't work for me; I found myself "chasing the dot" rather than trying to align my front sight on the target. Stages required moving between targets and shooting oscillating IDPA cardboard silhouettes.

While I think a laser may be a marvelous training tool in giving instant feedback about where your muzzle is pointing as you manipulate the gun, I think that for defensive handgun use it is highly overrated. Again, this is based on how MY brain works... but trying to locate a dime-sized dot on a non-homogenous target (think of the BG wearing clothing of different texture, color and reflectivity) that's moving is more challenging and ultimately less effective than focusing on the front sight.

Now a red dot sight like an Aimpoint, that's a completely different story!

 

[ArmyCop]

If considering a laser - go here: Get A Crimson Trace Laser Sight Catalog | Crimson Trace Laser Grips

Order their FREE DVD as it might help you in your decision.

It's a decent video to watch even if you don't like lasers...