Incapacitation Chart

2127 Views 68 Replies 33 Participants Last post by G-man*, 7 d ago

Ektarr

Discussion Starter · 17 d ago

From Greg Ellifritz. Take from or what you will...

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MJK

· #2 · 17 d ago

I donn't know how this metric is defined, but a range of 83-87% is quite narrow for the handgun cartridges represented. This suggests minimal differences according to the metric, which seems hard to support based on the physics of terminal ballistics. Just my $0.02...

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edr9x23super

· #3 · 17 d ago

I’m willing to bet with a direct hit to the brain pan, any one of those caliber weapons will score 100% incapacitation.

Messiness when the brain pan is hit factor ? The 357 and 44 will easily take that prize.

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Snub44

· #4 · 17 d ago

This chart claims to be from him, but it doesn't seem to match up with his actual deductions, and it doesn't really tell us how those % numbers were arrived at.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

by Greg Ellifritz I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately...

www.buckeyefirearms.org

There are so many ways numbers can be presented...and say so many different things. I like to get as close to the source's actual words as possible, trying to understand what he found out with all that hard work.

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SchemaEnigma

· #5 · 17 d ago

MJK said:
I donn't know how this metric is defined, but a range of 83-87% is quite narrow for the handgun cartridges represented. This suggests minimal differences according to the metric, which seems hard to support based on the physics of terminal ballistics. Just my $0.02...

It looks to be a chart made from some of the data in this study:

www.activeresponsetraining.net

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Written by: Greg Ellifritz I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles

www.activeresponsetraining.net

Bad Bob

· #6 · 17 d ago

That "study" is missing so much data it is worthless.

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SchemaEnigma

· #7 · 17 d ago

Snub44 said:
This chart claims to be from him, but it doesn't seem to match up with his actual deductions, and it doesn't really tell us how those % numbers were arrived at.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

by Greg Ellifritz I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately...

www.buckeyefirearms.org

There are so many ways numbers can be presented...and say so many different things. I like to get as close to the source's actual words as possible, trying to understand what he found out with all that hard work.

It looks like a chart made from the "% of people who were not incapacitated – " data from the study. (e.g. 13% of people not incapacitated = 87% incapacitation success rate).

SchemaEnigma

· #8 · 17 d ago (Edited)

Bad Bob said:
That "study" is missing so much data it is worthless.

IDK about (completely) worthless, but certainly not definitive.

This study has been discussed on this site before, IIRC.

Its worth may include getting people to question their "everybody knows" knowledge.

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Erich1B

· #9 · 16 d ago

It looks like, in terms of incapacitation success, 10mm is off the chart!!!

Ektarr said:
From Greg Ellifritz. Take from or what you will...

View attachment 412186

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Rabbit212

· #10 · 16 d ago

Double tap takes them all over 150%!!!

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Rabbit212

· #11 · 16 d ago

Erich1B said:
It looks like, in terms of incapacitation success, 10mm is off the chart!!!

I see what you did there 👍🏼

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bigmacque

· #12 · 16 d ago

Yeah ..... just my $0.02 but here goes:

I agree with a few previous comments, re: lacking data. So hard to put faith in numbers without knowing the data behind the numbers. Statistics (where is Tangent when we need him?) are too easily manipulated and the resulting information presented has an even wider window of manipulation.

A .22 will incapacitate when it hits the right bloodline.

As for previous discussions on this forum regarding this chart, I'd like to see that discussion. I'm reminded of some of my other studies. The whole body of work needs to be considered, not just bits and pieces. I have faith in the full bit and brace of knowledge that kicks around on this forum; I've learned that there are many here that are more thoughtful and more experienced than I am and their depth of knowledge is superior to mine. My bet is that if there is indeed a previous discussion on this diagram the results were pretty much the same conclusion as the posts above.

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Bad Bob

· #13 · 16 d ago

SchemaEnigma said:
IDK about (completely) worthless, but certainly not definitive.

This study has been discussed on this site before, IIRC.

Its worth may include getting people to question their "everybody knows" knowledge.

There is no data on how many times they were shot, where they were shot, what ammo was used(what they we shot with), 357 magnum and 357 Sig are lumped together.

After comparing shooting data with a retired homicide detective buddy of mine I realized, I should say - we both realized that bullet construction is as important as any other factor. Case in point; Officer Lim LAPD was shot once in the chest with a Winchester 110 grain JHP 357 magnum. Though the bullet hit her heart she was able to fight and ultimately survive. The bullet held together and penetrated. Up to this point my only experience had been with the Remington 110 grain 357 magnum. The Remington bullet with its exposed lead tip and thin scalloped jacket violently fragmented upon impact. The wounding mechanisms of these two bullets the same weight, same caliber and same velocity were vastly different.

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Bad Bob

· #14 · 16 d ago

Rabbit212 said:
Double tap takes them all over 150%!!!

That only works with the 357.

Bad Bob

· #15 · 16 d ago

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G-man*

· #16 · 16 d ago

The guy with the 45 knows he is right.
The guy with the 9mm knows he is right
The guy with the 40 tells them they are both wrong.

The guy with the model 10 38 spl just laughs at them all, as he puts 6 more in the x ring.

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Mike1956

· #17 · 16 d ago

G-man* said:
The guy with the 45 knows he is right.
The guy with the 9mm knows he is right
The guy with the 40 tells them they are both wrong.

The guy with the model 10 38 spl just laughs at them all, as he puts 6 more in the x ring.

The Boys Are Alright...

PEF

· #18 · 16 d ago

From the source: "On average, how many rounds did it take for the person to stop his violent action or be incapacitated?"

Incapacitation is stopping the threat. Not "Dead right there" or "He blowed his head off."

My take away from the high incapacitation rates is that people don't like being shot, no matter the round.

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jmf552

· #19 · 16 d ago

Bad Bob said:
That "study" is missing so much data it is worthless.

It's simply a report on the available data of actual outcomes of hundreds of actual shooting incidents. It doesn't tell us everything we'd like to know and it doesn't pretend to, but how is systematically reported data on actual shootings worthless?

People more commonly base their assumptions on a handful of incidents they are personally familiar with and/or bullet performance in gelatin blocks. I put less worth on those.

My guess is that it shows how pervasive psychological stops are.

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jmf552

· #20 · 16 d ago

MJK said:
I donn't know how this metric is defined, but a range of 83-87% is quite narrow for the handgun cartridges represented. This suggests minimal differences according to the metric, which seems hard to support based on the physics of terminal ballistics. Just my $0.02...

That's the conundrum. Ellifritz' study is reporting real world shootings. The application of the physics of terminal ballistics to real world outcomes is theoretical. So the conclusion has to be that terminal ballistics is not the only factor at play. The FBI report said as much, "Physical factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of the temporary cavity, or calculations such as the RII are irrelevant or erroneous (to incapacitation)."

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