[P95Carry]

This is not new material - just considering again our potential headaches at times!

We are all I am sure very aware that if something were to go down, we would certainly want the cops to know, preferably in advance, that we were the good guy. We discussed that on a thread not so long ago.

The other thing that comes up tho is - if we as the good guy observe another good guy (could be one us) doing what he has to do. How the heck in a very short space of time can we make the right decision - we are in the same boat as a cop in some ways.

We hear gunfire close by - and probably will seek cover but - having seen two parties obviously shooting it out - has the good guy ''won'' or is that the good guy on the ground with the bad guy still standing??

Turn this around too - we the good guy have just dealt with a bad guy successfully and are only seconds later seen by another good guy (one of us!) - how does one party correctly ID the other. Might a second gun arriving be another BG - or one of us?

I am not seeing right now any surefire way of guaranteeing the exact correct decision in all cases of this type and would appreciate input and discussion. To me this could be a very real dilemma although ''perceived threat'' could be vital - but two sides can see perceived threat!!!!

 

[jarhead79]

First scenario is easy...

Good guy on ground, bad guy standing...BG is going to high tail it outta there.

BG down, GG standing....GG will likely disarm BG and remain for LE. Also likely to be calling 911, or telling others to.

Second scenario....GG standing, another GG walks up, if GG #2 considers standing person a GG, not likely to have gun drawn. (situation will dictate). If one considers standing person to be BG, I don't know about you, but if the other guy's already down, I'm gonna ask questions from a distance. Most BGs couldn't hit the broad side of a barn outside of a few feet.

If I just drew down, and someone walks up, gun or not, I'm already in control of the situation. I'd tell them to stay back. Another GG would do just that, and likely identify himself. A BG would probably keep coming and present a weapon if armed.

 

[P95Carry]

All (potentially) very true jar - and what I would tend to hope for.

However - we have to make sure we do not make any assumptions ever, based purely on ''what we expect'' - because things are not always as they seem.

Too rapid a decision just may not be the right one - plus, another assumption I won't make, is that every BG doesn't know how to shoot! :wink: I certainly prefer to train for ''worst case''.

Not saying you are wrong - but, I just don't think it would always be that (dependably) simple. Add to that - the possible need for very fast decision-making.

 

[Redneck Repairs]

that is only one of the reasons that i have a fairly strict non intervention policy ( i am dammed good at calling 911 and then being there as a witness for the folks who have to sort this crap out ) if its not dammed clear cut then the limit of me participating in any dustup is to call on my cell

 

[Ti Carry]

that is only one of the reasons that i have a fairly strict non intervention policy ( i am dammed good at calling 911 and then being there as a witness for the folks who have to sort this crap out ) if its not dammed clear cut then the limit of me participating in any dustup is to call on my cell

I am going to agree with Redneck here. I am not poking my nose into a situation where it doesn't belong.

Ti.

 

[P95Carry]

I agree too re poking nose in - the thing I am trying to analyze here is the situations where you are in some way drawn in - perceived threat, whatever. I maybe did not make that over clear. Looking if you will at the BG/GG potential ''blurr''.

I doubt most of us seek an interventionist approach but I can see situations where thru circumstances we are too close to events to just observe and call in - tho hopefully not too likely.

 

[Redneck Repairs]

well p95 if i am sucked into the situation ANYONE i dont personaly know ( or wearing a clearly defined sign of Law enforcement) is a bad or potential bad guy and are subject to leathal force if i feel threatoned by them . its not a shoot them all and let god sort them out , its that a gunfight is as someone said Nasty , Brutish, and short . my reason for carrying is so that i go home every night as do my loved ones , thoes not fitting the above are all threats and will be treated as that . good guy , bad guy , that is for the cops and the courts to sort out , myself i only have threats to sort out once the penny falls . now everyone sees why i am prone to taking cover and calling inn rather than becoming part of the situation

 

[P95Carry]

I hear ya RR! :wink:

 

[rstickle]

Unless you are directly involved, my thought is a defensive posture, and a call to 911. Not knowing which side is which could get you involved in something you'll eventally be sorry for, unless a life is in the balance, stay on the sidelines.

 

[HotGuns]

Its never as easy as it seems...

Im reminded of a scenario in the FATs (weapons simulations trainer) where you "walk up" to a man that is bent over someone on the ground that has been shot. One guy is laying in a pool of blood and the other guy has his gun out. You vebalize that you are a police officer and the "good guy" shows you a badge wallet with ID.

You immediatley lower your gun and the guy that you assumed was an officer ( you saw his badge and ID right ?) imediatley shoots you.

Come to find out, it was the bad guy that had shot a detective and had simply picked up his ID that was laying on the ground.

The one scenario supposedly was patterened after an actual shooting that occured years ago. It also accounted for everyone on the dept. getting "shot" as without fail everyone lowered their weapons before actually verifieing the I.D. Its also one of the reasons that most cop I.D's have indentifiable pictures on them. At one time not long ago, many of them didnt.

Sometimes its awfully hard to tell the good guys from the bad...

 

[SSKC]

This scenario illustrates why I never go out without my Official CCW Badge.:tongue: In case there's anyconfusion, I'm kidding.

First scenario is easy...

Good guy on ground, bad guy standing...BG is going to high tail it outta there.

BG down, GG standing....GG will likely disarm BG and remain for LE. Also likely to be calling 911, or telling others to.

Probably, but things are not always as they seem. A BG, if mentally incompetent, may stay to admire his work. A GG could panic and flee (NOT a good idea), or could appear to flee when actually retreating to a better position if he saw additional BG's, as in a gang scenario.

Personally, I don't thing approaching someone who has a gun in his/her hand is a great idea. Even a card-carrying GG could turn to face you and in so doing, cover you with the muzzle. In the post-shooting stress, and A/D (or N/D) would not be unforseeable.

If you were the GG/shooter, I would think putting the gun away would be a high priority. Standing in any public place after a shooting, with a gun in your hand, would be a recipe for getting shot by a responding officer. I believe this is one reason why so many people feel that any holster you carry with should allow one-handed reholstering, so you can maintain control of your weapon without appearing to be a threat to responding officers or other GG's.

SSKC

 

[rocky]

Unless you feel personally threatened, don't intervene. Beetert o seek cover and report if at all possible. BG' and GG alike could take you as a threat.

 

[CLASS3NH]

I agree with RR........If the Threat comes MY way......then, I'm going to utilize as much force as needed to defend myself, or my innocents around me. If the guy starts to draw down on me, I'm going to react , take cover if possible, order him to STOP, STOP,STOP,Identify yourself, and if he doesn't take my third warning, continues to advance me without proper ID, then he's Mine.

 

[P95Carry]

BG' and GG alike could take you as a threat

Exactly Rocky - one of my points.

If I as the good guy have just had to defend myself - and even if gun reholstered see another guy appear with a gun - might be one of us - but he maybe thinks I am BG - I maybe think he is BG - or not - it could provide an intersting impasse! Or not.

All I am considering is the potential for confusion for any of us - while readily accepting non intervention as a first choice when the late arriver on the scene.

 

[gddyup]

You have to look at the situation as it's presented. If you do not know the situation and come upon 2 peeps blasting away, the best place to be is under cover. Preferably in a position where you can draw to a ready position and keep clear. Witness what is going on while calling for help. Going into a situation like that without prior knowledge of exactly what is going on would be bad news.

The situation we are hashing about is much too general to say what your tactical thinking should be. There are thousands of small details and each one could alter your reaction to the threat in this case. If you don't see it and don't have any idea what the story is behind it, best to cover your own a55 and be a witness.

 

[TonyB]

This is why GG's should wear white hats like the olden days......:danceban:

 

[Kompact9]

I think gddyup covered the situation fairly well...

 

[SSKC]

Copied from another forum, but pertinent to this thread:

"Police shoot off-duty NYPD officer holding gun
Hit three times, Eric Hernandez is hospitalized in critical condition

Updated: 2:51 p.m. ET Jan. 28, 2006
NEW YORK - In a tragic case of mistaken identity, police shot and critically wounded an off-duty officer as he pointed a gun at a suspect outside a fast food restaurant early Saturday, authorities said.

Eric Hernandez, 24, was hit three times and was hospitalized in extremely critical condition, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.

The officer who pulled the trigger, identified only as a 20-year veteran of the force, was being treated for trauma at another hospital.

Hernandez had been in line at a White Castle restaurant in the Bronx shortly before 5 a.m. when he was assaulted by a half-dozen men, Bloomberg said. It wasn’t immediately clear what sparked the fight, but it was captured on the restaurant’s security camera.

A White Castle employee called 911, and Hernandez—with his gun drawn—ran into the parking lot after his assailants, Bloomberg said.

He apparently subdued one of the suspects, and when a patrol car arrived, was pointing his gun at a man on the ground.

One of the two officers, apparently believing Hernandez was about to shoot,in the car opened fire, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.

Hernandez, who joined the force in 2004, never fired his weapon, authorities said. He was shot in each leg and the abdomen and lost a lot of blood, Bloomberg said.

Kelly said officials were questioning eight individuals about the shooting, including the six who fought with Hernandez inside the White Castle.

It was believed to be the NYPD’s first friendly fire shooting since Desmond Robinson, who wasn’t in uniform, was shot in the back by an off-duty officer in 1994. Robinson had his gun drawn on a subway platform, and the officer mistook him for a criminal."
-----------------------
Man, further reason why you don't want to have a gun in your hand unless absolutely necesarry when the police arrive.

This is obviously a tough issue. As the above illustrates, even the professionals are fooled at times. I'm inclined to think that if possible, you should holster the weapon. Additionally, you might consider positioning yourself so that you are facing the door and can see approaching officers.

Massad Ayoob has a dated, but good video on this very topic. It is geared toward off duty LEO's, but applies to "us" as well. I believe it is called "Off Duty Survival."

SSKC

 

[P95Carry]

Wow - indeed very pertinent to the subject.

 

[madmike]

Pertinent to this thread? Oh yes, without a doubt!

But, (you had to know this was coming!) I would not want to use this single incident to base my personal code of conduct upon.

I really do understand the position of carrying to "protect me and mine." But I cannot accept the addition of a concrete "and mine alone" to that statement.

I've no way of knowing how many who do attach that "mine alone" part, do so without any exclusion, whatsoever.

I'm not an LEO, or an LEO-wannabe. I have no fantasy about "saving the world." I don't know that the world needs saving and I'm not always sure it's worth saving.

The one thing I am sure of, is that I have my own personal code of ethics, or conduct, if you will, and there are some lines I do feel compelled to cross.

I don't want to waste bandwidth repeating an epic-length post here. I have pretty much said all I have the energy to say in another thread in the "Tactical Scenarios" section, in the thread started by apcarmed, about "What do you do? Really?"

My "little" addition to that discussion is somewhere near the bottom of page three.

Feel free to dissect that post, Lord knows its full of holes, but it is true and does explain where I differ in my opinion of just how far I will go.

That's not to say I might not act otherwise, under different circumstances, but what I did do, that time. There's no doubt that some, maybe many, will conclude that I was just plain wrong. That's OK with me.

I do have to concern myself with what's right for me, as I'm the one that will have to live with my decision, not you. (That was not meant to sound antagonistic, I can only hope it isn't read that way.)

My grasp of the language often frustrates me. Too bad it's the only one I speak! :smile:

mm