Is there anything else like this?

2655 Views 15 Replies 7 Participants Last post by The Tourist, Mar 28, 2005

Euclidean

Discussion Starter · Mar 26, 2005

I'm curious oh ye knowers of all things that fire small pieces of metal at ridiculous velocities.

Is there in fact anything similar to this very interesting Glock model I'm sure you've all heard of?

http://www.glock.com/g36.htm

What intrigues me about this model is that it's chambered in a large bore caliber, has single stack magazine thinness, doesn't have an external safety, and it has a nearly 4 inch barrel and is small but it's a size step up from my J Frame.

What kills it for me is that it's a Glock, and that means it feels like a Glock, it has Glock grips, and it is probably a Glock brick in the hand. I do not question the reliability, materials, or functionality of Glock pistols but overall they just don't work for me. Even at that I think the 19 is okay, but I can think of similar pistols I'd rather have.

Does someone else make something that meets similar criteria, or is Glock being unique here? The closest I can think of is the PT-145, whose thickness I could live with, but it has an external safety.

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Bumper

· #2 · Mar 26, 2005

THE USP UNIVERSAL SELF-LOADING PISTOL

The HK USP is the first HK pistol designed especially for American shooters. Features favored by U.S. law enforcement and military users provided the design criteria for the USP. The controls are uniquely American, influenced by such famous designs as the Government Model 1911 pistol.

All USPs use a fiber-reinforced polymer frame stiffened by stainless steel inserts at areas subject to stress and friction. HK pioneered this use of polymer materials in the production of handguns more than 30 years ago with the development of the VP70Z and P9S pistols.

The control lever, a combination safety and decocking lever, is frame mounted and quickly accessible, unlike the slide-mounted safeties common on many semi-automatic pistols.

Using a modified Browning-type action with a special patented recoil reduction system, the USP recoil reduction system reduces recoil effects on pistol components and also lowers the recoil forces felt by the shooter. This same recoil reduction system has been tested and proven in the HK Mark 23 pistol developed for the U.S. Special Operations Command. The USP recoil reduction system is insensitive to ammunition types and requires no special adjustment or maintenance. It functions effectively in all USP models.

The modular design of the USP's internal components allows the control lever function to be switched from the left to the right side of the pistol for left-handed shooters. The USP can also be converted from one type of trigger firing mode to another. This includes combination double-action and single-action (DA/SA) modes and double action only (DAO) modes.

Features

• Corrosion proof fiber reinforced polymer frame
• Polygonal bore for increased velocity, easier cleaning and longer life
• Can be converted to any of nine trigger firing modes
• HK recoil reduction system
• Corrosion resistant "Hostile Environment" blued finish
• Oversize trigger guard for use with gloves
• One piece machined steel slide
• Universal mounting grooves for installing accessories
• Ambidextrous magazine release lever
• Extended slide release
• Patented Lock-Out safety device
• Lifetime warranty

USP Specifications

Caliber .45 ACP
Capacity 10
Length 7.87"
Width 1.26"
Height 5.55"
Sight Radius 6.34"
Barrel Length 4.41"
Weight 1.74 lb

USP VARIANTS

Variant 1 DA/SA with control lever (safety/decocking lever) on left
Variant 2 DA/SA with control lever (safety/decocking lever) on right
Variant 3 DA/SA with control lever (decocking lever) on left
Variant 4 DA/SA with control lever (decocking lever) on right
Variant 5 DAO with control lever (safety lever) on left
Variant 6 DAO with control lever (safety lever) on right
Variant 7 DAO with no control lever
Variant 9 DA/SA with control lever (safety lever) on left
Variant 10 DA/SA with control lever (safety lever) on right

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mchasal

· #3 · Mar 26, 2005

Bumper pointed out the HK USP, but you would probably be more interested in the USP-Compact. It's smaller overall than the USP, most importantly, it's thinner. At 1.14" it's right about the same as the G36 at 1.13". It is a bit bigger in length and height than the G36, but you do get 8 rounds in .45ACP.
Details here.

Mike

The Tourist

· #4 · Mar 26, 2005

Euc,

I could have written your thread, myself. I hate Glocks. I carry a Glock 27.

You're right, it feels cheap, handles like a 2x4, and has all of the sexual finesse of kissing your sister (which Luke Skywalker and my Corsican cousin Carmine have both done).

It is reliable, corrosion resistant and it comes in all of the common calibres, although in this rendition I would go with the .45 GAP and really shrink it down.

I have a H&K USP SW .40, and while it's a great gun, it's simply far too pretty for me to lug daily. If the Glock gets a scratch, eh, who cares?

I have such little concern for the piece that I would loan it to a friend, and tell him I'll clean it when it comes back. And if you know me, I won't even let you have my jackknife to cut anything.

Bumper

· #5 · Mar 26, 2005

mchasal is right, the USP Compact is probably closer to what you would want.

THE USP COMPACT SERIES

The HK USP Compact is a small frame pistol capable of firing the most powerful cartridges in 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP. Based on the full-size USP models, these handy pistols combine compact size with optimum effective shooting performance. USP Compacts are smaller and lighter than large frame USPs. The reduction in trigger reach and grip circumference increases concealability and enhances shooting ergonomics. Unlike some subcompact semiautomatic pistols that use a difficult to shoot “ two-finger grip” frame, the USP Compact uses a narrow, full-hand grip frame with a choice of interchangeable extended or flush-fitting magazine floorplates. This makes the pistol easy to shoot without sacrificing concealability.

Like their large frame predecessors, USP Compacts are designed with the demanding needs of the American shooter in mind. Using a modified linkless Browning-type action, the USP Compact is built to take the punishment of high-energy +P loads.

To reduce the length of the slide and barrel on the USP Compact, the mechanical recoil reduction system found on large frame USPs has been replaced by a specially designed flat compression spring contained in the captive recoil spring assembly by a polymer absorber bushing. Service life is still engineered to exceed 20,000 rounds.

Easy to shoot, simple to maintain; the USP Compact is a reliable, safe, accurate, and highly concealable pistol.

MSRP
USP Compact 45 - $874

Features
• Corrosion proof fiber-reinforced polymer frame
• Grooved target triggers
• Polygonal bore profile for increased velocity, easier cleaning, and longer barrel life
• Can be converted to any of nine trigger firing modes
• Specially designed recoil spring assembly with polymer absorber bushing
• Choice of corrosion resistant “Hostile Environment” Nitro Carburized finish
• No snag, bobbed hammer
• Flared recurve trigger guard
• Choice of flat and extended floorplate magazines
• One piece machined steel slide
• Proprietary mounting grooves for installing accessories
• Ambidextrous magazine release lever
• Contoured, extended slide release
• Extractor doubles as a loaded chamber indicator
• Patented Lock-Out Safety device
• Limited Lifetime warranty

The Heckler & Koch LEM
(Law Enforcement Modification) trigger system variant is now available in all standard models of USP and is standard on P2000 and P2000SK pistols. (more info)

Specifications

Caliber .45 ACP
Capacity 8
Length 7.09"
Width 1.14"
Height 5.06"
Sight Radius 5.83"
Barrel Length 3.80"
Weight 1.47lb

USP COMPACT VARIANTS

Variant 1 DA/SA with control lever (safety/decocking lever) on left Variant 2 DA/SA with control lever (safety/decocking lever) on right Variant 3 DA/SA with control lever (decocking lever) on left
Variant 4 DA/SA with control lever (decocking lever) on right
Variant 5 DAO with control lever (safety lever) on left
Variant 6 DAO with control lever (safety lever) on right
Variant 7 DAO with no control lever
Variant 9 DA/SA with control lever (safety lever) on left
Variant 10 DA/SA with control lever (safety lever) on right

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Betty

· #6 · Mar 27, 2005

While I was shopping for a .45, I compared the USPc and the G36. The widths are similar, but the USPc is thinner between the thumb and finger area, and that was a plus for me, since I have small hands. The price on the USPc was much greater than the G36, but offered more features and variants (as Bumper listed).

Both are great pistols.

I purchased a used USPc DA/SA with ambi safety. I love it.

Euclidean

Discussion Starter · #7 · Mar 27, 2005

Thanks for those great answers guys, I found a couple more variations on this theme:

First of all I was completely wrong about the PT-145. I thought it had an external safety but it's actually DAO. The PT-145 however is much closer to the Glock 30 than the 36.

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=145SSP&category=Pistol

There's the 745 too, but apparently all it really is, is a 145 with a lower magazine capacity. I've read it's not noticeably thinner than the other model. So in short neither of them are as thin as the 36 even if they are comparable products.

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=745SS&category=Pistol

That's still not a bad thing... it would be a cheap pistol and you could beat it up without worrying about it. But this still isn't really in the same league as the 36; it's too thick.

However I found something that's probably a better altenative, and it's not in production yet, the KP4543:

http://kahr.com/front.html

I really like Kahrs, and they have offerings in .45 and .40 that meet these criteria.

Kahr, and HK if you wanted to pay that much, would be the ways to go here I think. It seems the concept of a thin, compact semiautomatic in a large bore caliber is indeed not unique to Glock. Taurus is the economy answer if you're willing to go thicker a la the Glock 30. I have had the pleasure of handling the full size USP and it is an excellent gun. I'd imagine the USPC is as well. I thought they had external safeties and had no idea they came in so many variations.

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The Tourist

· #8 · Mar 27, 2005

no idea they came in so many variations.

And to me, that's a drawback. And I say that having an H&K USP. You simply cannot plan an emergency. I need something I can pick up and start blasting with. And as my wife is left-handed, she has to make the critter go bang, as well.

Before the Glock, I did buy an SW 4516 with ambi-safeties. We still use it. Having no children at home, I leave it in 'condition two' so she has the same manual of arms for her Charter Arms .44 Bulldog, the 4516 and the Glock.

A firearm with more moves than a redheaded disco queen on 'ludes is just as much fun to play with. The operative word there is "play." I have several 1911 gaming guns and love the heck out of them.

But I have read a few articles by Massad Ayoob about the tachy-psyche syndrome. My belief is that the simpler you make something the better off you might be in an emergency.

Euclidean

Discussion Starter · #9 · Mar 27, 2005

Well this is all just a bit of market research Tourist. I'm hoping to teach summer school and use the proceeds towards a better carry gun. The 642 I like very much and I would trust my life to it, but the thought occurs to me I should probably be looking for something that's easier to shoot and that fires a more effective caliber.

I wouldn't go with the HK in any circumstance unless I found one that was the variant with no safety lever and DAO. It's a fine gun but I want what I want, not a compromise.

I like the idea of the .44 Special a lot, but finding a shooting iron has proved to be tricky. There's very little on the market. I'm investigating the possibility therefore of a very thin DAO semiautomatic in a comparable caliber.

The Tourist

· #10 · Mar 27, 2005

I think the SW is a better gun.

I'd get some Star-Fires, Golden Sabers or Gold Dots and practice, practice, practice.

I'm saving my pennies for another 342. Yeah, yeah, I have the Glock 27, but in a light breeze Betty can smell Austrian poly-carbonates.

She'd whack me in a minute, for this, and other jokes.

Euclidean

Discussion Starter · #11 · Mar 27, 2005

The Tourist going down to a .38 from a .40? Now I've seen everything...

The Tourist

· #12 · Mar 27, 2005

Different weather.

Wisconsin gets hot, muggy and clammy in parts of the summer. While a Glock has many non-metal parts, nothing beats a good light nub.

Titanium doesn't mind sweat.

Another thing. With all of the junk I carry on my bike and in my pockets, a nice light firearm is gladly welcomed.

In fact, different styles of dress call for different pistols. If I'm off to see a new client, I carry a 'day planner.' Heavy winter coat or long hours in the truck, why it's the Glock, of course.

Crappy black T-shirt, equally crappy blue-jeans, August at 105 degrees and a scalding hot Harley, it's got to be the 342.

Sure, if I have the choice, whack 'em with a cinder block. A light pool cue upside the head works, too.

(Maybe a smaller calibre, but I've always been sneaky. Still love me?)

By the by, I did send a pic of my day-planner to Betty. If she's not stalking me, laying concertina wire, or mining my front yard, she might send you a copy.

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Euclidean

Discussion Starter · #13 · Mar 27, 2005

I can see that. That's why I made sure the first gun I bought specifically for carrying would be one that gave me a feeling of confidence and one that would fit in anything in my wardrobe regardless of the time of year.

KC135

· #14 · Mar 27, 2005

Tachypschia is time distortion ie, event that took 3 seconds may seem like it took 20 seconds.

If the gun you need in a critical situation, is one you have done extensive training with, the operation will be a conditioned reflex.

rocky

· #15 · Mar 27, 2005

I have both a Full size USP and a PT140. I like em both for their respective roles. If I were to consider another compact carry it would be the HK 2000. Similar to the USP compact , but smoother lines and a bit more compact design than the USP comp. I like the thumb safety but you don't have to use it if you don't like it , as the guns are all DA first shot or can be rigged for DAO.

The Tourist

· #16 · Mar 28, 2005

KC135,

You have hit the nail right on the head. Practice.

If I have time, I ride, hit the gym, take naps and go to Barnes and Noble.

And even my practice sometimes lapses into friends chasing beer cans with a Ruger 22/45.

I don't know whether it's age, routine or simple apathy, but total razor-sharp combat skills in an eye-gouging death match with a trained Brazilian knife dueller just do not hold my fancy anymore.

Oh, I like info from SWAT and Combat Handguns, I always have and always will. I love my 1911s and my .40s. I have good doors and windows, alarms and several other surprises for would-be aggressors.

But I just got my splint off, and healing is a biatch. I don't want my wife cut up or disabled. Avoidance is my order of the day.

Granted, sometimes the exit is blocked by rough men. I just don't want to run an IPSC course and reload all of the ammunition.

Laugh if you will, but I truly believe that my job has migrated from 'compatriot' to 'mentor.'

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