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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got a call today from my not so local LGS that my HK P2000SK in .357 Sig came in yesterday (yay!), unfortunately they are closed tomorrow and I will be out of town on business all next week. I really don't want to leave it sitting there for a whole week and I'm sure they want the other 80% of their money ASAP so I was thinking that I could have my girlfriend go and get it for me? She's totally clean background wise as am I obviously but would this be considered a straw buy ? They already have my credit card info and I'm fine with them just billing it for the remaining amount for the gun since that's how I would pay in person anyway but I want to be sure it is legal for her to be the one on the 4473 even though the gun is really for me. I didn't bring it up with them on the phone and just said I was away right now but would be there to get it ASAP, didn't want to sound shady about something that may/may not be legal. What is the best way to handle this?
 

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The key part of a straw purchase is that the person must be buying the firearm for someone else who would not be legally able to do so themselves. You can buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it.

FAQ | Dontlie.org

Edit: Just because it's legal doesn't mean the LGS will allow it. I've found most people (including gun owners and FFLs) don't really have an understanding of what a straw purchase actually is.

Edit 2: Interestingly enough, the National Shooting Sports Foundation seems to be headquartered in Newtown, CT. Crazy how once you hear about a place in the news, that name starts popping up everywhere.
 

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Not an attorney but I doubt she would be able to pick up a firearm if it is your name...... Nothing would her from purchasing the firearm and then gifting it to you if that does not violate your state law...........
 

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...if you send your girlfriend with your money to pick up the gun, she will be attempting an illegal sale...according to the ATF...she would have to answer question 11 a. NO and the dealer would be unable to sell it to her. From the instructions to 11 a. on form 4473:

"Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself...you are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO " to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones..."

...she cannot purchase it as a gift for you because YOU are the purchaser and have, in fact, made partial payment...

...don't play with these people, especially with the current atmosphere...let the gun languish at the dealer's till you return and keep you, your girlfriend, and your dealer straight...
...others may mean well with their opinions...the above quote is from the actual form 4473...you can't get any more accurate than that...

Got a call today from my not so local LGS that my HK P2000SK in .357 Sig came in yesterday (yay!), unfortunately they are closed tomorrow and I will be out of town on business all next week. I really don't want to leave it sitting there for a whole week and I'm sure they want the other 80% of their money ASAP so I was thinking that I could have my girlfriend go and get it for me? She's totally clean background wise as am I obviously but would this be considered a straw buy ? They already have my credit card info and I'm fine with them just billing it for the remaining amount for the gun since that's how I would pay in person anyway but I want to be sure it is legal for her to be the one on the 4473 even though the gun is really for me. I didn't bring it up with them on the phone and just said I was away right now but would be there to get it ASAP, didn't want to sound shady about something that may/may not be legal. What is the best way to handle this?
...from the signature portion of the 4473:

"I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF Form 4473. I understand that answering "yes" to question 11.a. if I am not the actual buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law..."

...no wiggle room...
 

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...well, "several people" includes the ATF... ATF Press Release - ATF Announces Arrest of Straw Purchaser From Barona Resort and Casino Homicide/Suicide Case | ATF and " http://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-dont-lie-campaign.html

THEY call lying on 11.a. a straw purchase, too...read the third paragraph "illegal purchase of a firearm by one person for another"...so my correction was unneccessary..."straw purchase" and illegal purchase are the same thing, regardless of which type it is...


...the term"straw purchase" isn't in law...it's a term that's come to mean illegal purchase for another than the purchaser...by media, laymen, and the ATF themselves...
 

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...I edited my post earlier till I could research...in fact, straw purchase is a term not defined in law that's come to be used for illegal purchases by one for another...INCLUDING for one who couldn't pass the check for himself...as stressed in the campaign you're sharing with us...it encompasses ANY illegal purchase of one for another, according to the ATF...see post #5...
...you CAN buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it, but you must do it with your own money, not his...
The key part of a straw purchase is that the person must be buying the firearm for someone else who would not be legally able to do so themselves. You can buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it.

FAQ | Dontlie.org

Edit: Just because it's legal doesn't mean the LGS will allow it. I've found most people (including gun owners and FFLs) don't really have an understanding of what a straw purchase actually is.

Edit 2: Interestingly enough, the National Shooting Sports Foundation seems to be headquartered in Newtown, CT. Crazy how once you hear about a place in the news, that name starts popping up everywhere.
 

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...in this case, that would be a felony...since the purchase is already his, he's put money down on it...and the purchase would be made with his money...
...had she from the beginning used her money to buy him a gift...and he was not prohibited from buying/owning a gun...no problem...this one needs to be finished by him...
Not an attorney but I doubt she would be able to pick up a firearm if it is your name...... Nothing would her from purchasing the firearm and then gifting it to you if that does not violate your state law...........
(I'm not an attorney, either, but I held an FFL many years ago, keep up with the laws, and handled the audits for a pawn shop I worked in for 5 years...the ATF has always been easy to work with for me...I am painstaking about following the laws...I'd sooner tug on Superman's cape than try to get something by them...)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the responses, I'm going to just let them know when I'll be able to get it and go get it myself when I can. After all, since I'll be away I won't get to have it anyway so why take the risk of getting a visit from some very serious gentlemen in dark blue jackets? I'm going to play it safe and do the purchase in a way that I know is totally legal. On the plus side, a week from now I will have another gun! :danceban:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
...and we'll have pics and a range report? already locate some ammo?
I have two boxes of range ammo set aside at the dealer and bought some SD rounds online the other day that are hopefully on the way, I don't own a camera so I'll see what I can about pics. I probably get to the LGS next Saturday to get the gun, unfortunately I have a wedding to go to that afternoon/evening so at best range trip on Sunday. A full report will follow! I'm also in process of trying to locate some additional mags, it comes with 2, I'd like to have 3 more for convenience.
 

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Excellent choice on the weapon and excellent choice on the chambering.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Excellent choice on the weapon and excellent choice on the chambering.
Thank you, I have read a lot about the .357's performance against auto glass and sheet metal. Some might say that this isn't relevant for civilian carriers but I don't agree, a potential car jacking scenario is one I see as most likely in a defense shooting I could be involved in. Add to that the fact that here in TX basically every vehicle has tinted window films on everything except the windshield which is an extra barrier. I know there is the noise issue with .357, but if my life depends on it I can deal with the hearing damage later.
 

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...I edited my post earlier till I could research...in fact, straw purchase is a term not defined in law that's come to be used for illegal purchases by one for another...INCLUDING for one who couldn't pass the check for himself...as stressed in the campaign you're sharing with us...it encompasses ANY illegal purchase of one for another, according to the ATF...see post #5...
...you CAN buy a firearm to gift to another person that would legally be able to own it, but you must do it with your own money, not his...
Yes, sorry I was not clear about who's money it must be. You are correct that if he already has a downpayment, then it would be his money even if the GF paid the rest of it on her own.
 

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They already have my credit card info and I'm fine with them just billing it for the remaining amount for the gun since that's how I would pay in person anyway but I want to be sure it is legal for her to be the one on the 4473 even though the gun is really for me.
Have you filled out the 4473 form? If not she can do all the paper work and pay with your credit card. She'll be the owner of a great pistol! You can always do the transfer to you after she picks if up.

Keep in mind she'll be the legal owner until you affect a transfer, so I wouldn't do anything to upset her as she may look at it as an Pre-engagement present!
 

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...not according to the law, nor ATF's examples...use his money(and credit card's money) and it's a straw purchase...why put them both in jeopardy of a felony??? nope...let him do it according to law as he's chosen wisely to do...
 

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A local store just handled a similar situation in an interesting way. There store only does 24 hour holds on popular/in demand guns. No lay aways etc. So they started a new thing to good repeat customers make sure they get their money quickly. The purchaser can't pick it up quickly, they are asked to purchase a gift card which they can do over the phone with a credit card. The store now has their money, and the gift card is placed with the gun, and then put in the back. When the buyer comes in, he does the paperwork, the gift card is redeemed, and the gun goes home with the new owner.

Not a perfect solution, but that is what they did to help a few people get the guns they wanted instead of having them sold out from underneath them.
 

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Thanks for the responses, I'm going to just let them know when I'll be able to get it and go get it myself when I can. After all, since I'll be away I won't get to have it anyway so why take the risk of getting a visit from some very serious gentlemen in dark blue jackets? I'm going to play it safe and do the purchase in a way that I know is totally legal. On the plus side, a week from now I will have another gun! :danceban:
Muahahahaha I knew it was only a matter of time! Well done. Hey just pretend you are in CA and the wait time will seem normal...
 
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...not according to the law, nor ATF's examples...use his money(and credit card's money) and it's a straw purchase...why put them both in jeopardy of a felony??? nope...let him do it according to law as he's chosen wisely to do...
Please review my post. The 4473 will show she is buying/owning the pistol, the credit card or payment is not the issue. If she fills out the 4473 and picks up the gun She owns the pistol, not him. She goes thru the background check not him. Until she legally transfer the pistol to him, it belongs to her.

I have purchase firearms for my grandsons in which I provide the purchase dollars, however 4473 is filled out my son(s) and the firearms are owned my son(s), aka my grandsons parents. That is not a "Straw Purchase", under the current laws, as they are the buyers and I give the funds as a gift!
 
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