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I have a 13 year old son.When he leaves to go somewhere with a friend and /or that friends family - say to the mall or an out-of-town sporting event I actually make him take his Kershaw 2 1/2" folder w/pocket clip. I just look at how many kids of this age disappear every year and I don't want my kid to be one of them. He's not the type to play with it or anything like that.Actually in the 2 years I've made him take it no one has ever even noticed that he's had it.Just looking for your opinions.
 

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For what purpose? Possible defense or escape? I wold rather teach em martial arts than ask em to try to defend themselves with a knife and no training. Too easy for a knife to be used against ya , especially if untrained. Ya want em safe , train em to fight for escape. Elbow jabs, shin strikes ect.
 

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On balance, even if he is sensible over concealment - not sure it is best way to go - unless - he has had quite extensive training.

Successful knife useage is not so simple and as Rocky mentions, it can possibly be used against him. I am naturally all for folks having means of protection, good ones - but even if as I suspect is the case, your boy is level headed and reliable - just not quite sure here.

If you or he insist on the knife aspect then IMO he must be schooled in its useage. Other defensive techniques are good too - kids learn quick and can be very fast - a big plus when compared with my age where fast is slower :biggrin:
 

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that's naught a knife....THIS IS A KNYFE!!!

rocky said:
For what purpose? Possible defense or escape? I wold rather teach em martial arts than ask em to try to defend themselves with a knife and no training. Too easy for a knife to be used against ya , especially if untrained. Ya want em safe , train em to fight for escape. Elbow jabs, shin strikes ect.
The very first thing I was taught about using a knife in self defense is to steel myself to the reality that I was gonna get CUT. Just resign yourself, if you get into a knife fight both parties are gonna get cut! How badly depends on training and how cool one can remain under that amount of stress. Unless you train him to absolutely MAIM an opponent, he'll likely come out on the losing side. A knife doesn't have the shock power of a gun. You might remove the perps LIVER and he'll likely not even know until he starts to lose consciousness from loss of blood. In the mere seconds between this revelation and actual bleedout, he might be able to do a LOT of damage.

If it was ME, I'd teach one or two or maybe THREE solid moves, workable in a variety of situations. For example: Get your opponent by the back of his heel and SEVER the corded tendon you find running from the heel up the rear of the calf. Yup, I'm speaking of the ACHILLES TENDON. Cut that in two and the BG won't EVER be able top stand on his own two feet ever again, unless there are some brilliant surgeons around.
 

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A Knife

I sure would get him a cell phone if he does not already have one.
I think every kid (male or female) should have a cell phone these days!

I think that a knife is a valuable tool for any responsible 13 year old to carry.
If it will ever save his life or prevent a future possible abduction is another story that nobody can answer.
Maybe all that he'll ever need to use it for is to cut himself loose from a seatbelt & (for that use alone) it would be worth having.

These days of "Absolute Correctness" a 13 year old kid even carrying a knife is looked upon as a huge social taboo.
You would need to absolutely stress that he always keep it well secreted unless there was an emergency.

Also...what ARE the knife laws in your home State or local area?
He may NOT be legally allowed to carry any knife if he is underage.
It depends on where you live. I would check that out since if you "arm" him & he gets wanded somewhere & that knife is discovered then you are the responsible person.

Heck...I was using a machete & a camp knife when I was about 6 years old & so to me a 2.5 folder is not even a REAL knife....but, society thinks quite differently these days.

I LOVE ExSoldiers suggestion. That make a ton of sense to me. A bit of useful training would help.
 

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Good points everyone!

Couple of questions:
1. Does your son have any type of empty-hand SD training? (and no, I don't mean sport-type Tae Kwon Do :rolleyes: ).

2. Does your son have any type of training for using a knife in SD?

If the answer to either of these ?'s is "no," I would definately consider getting him some instruction rather than just hoping that because he has a knife that he'll be fine. I'm not saying he shouldn't carry one (I've carried one just about every day since I was 6 or 7). Just that to use it effectively requires some training. You wouldn't carry a firearm for defense without knowing how to operate it would you?...same logic applies here.

One thing to remember, especially for someone his age, size, and strength (I'm ASSuming he's your average sized 13 year-old) is that in a violent situation the primary goals are survival and escape, not to "win" as if the situation is a competition. The difference is in the fact that operating under the "survive and escape" mindset your goal is to engage only long enough to create an opportunity to get to someone/someplace safe. In the mall, this might be a police-substation or the security office, or maybe just a store with lots of people. This applies to everyone but particularly to kids. At the studio where I train/teach we tell them that, since they're not going to be a "match" for most attackers in the physical sense their best bet is going to be to run like hell and scream their heads off. If the guy grabs them, hit them with a couple of quick strikes to sensitive areas (groin, eyes, throat, etc.) and then run like hell and scream their heads off. :biggrin:

ExSoldier brought up a good point with the "expect to get cut" thing. Knives are nasty, in fact, at close range I feel that they're the most dangerous weapon you can encounter. I would rather have someone stick a gun in my face (hasn't happened yet, thankfully) than have to try to disarm someone attacking me with a knife (hope it doesn't happen again). Then there's the fact that knives don't kill instantly like they do in the movies, in order to "stop" someone with a knife, you're going to have to inflict some major trauma; either damaging large muscles & tendons, severing arteries, or getting into the lungs and/or heart and even then you probably won't drop them instantly. This also raises a relevant question: is your son able physically (training) and mentally (mindset) to kill someone if necessary. It seems that the majority of people that carry weapons or train in martial-arts for self-defense never really "think through" these issues.

An effective addition (or alternative) to a knife might be an impact weapon of some sort (kubaton, koppo, etc.). Impact weapons have a better potential to "stop" (stun, K.O.) someone than edged weapons. I feel that they're also more intuitive and easier to train with. Another nice thing about impact weapons is that there are many objects that can be used as improvised weapons. In Missouri, based on the rather broad definitions in the code, any type of purpose-designed impact weapon is technically illegal. However, a small flashlight like the Mini-MagLight or even a Super-Sharpie Marker make excellent IW's (and they're innocent, I immagine he could even carry them in school).

So that's my $0.02. My advice is that, regardless of what direction you take, get him some training in something. Any increase in awareness and/or skill is a good thing. I hope I didn't come across as being critical, it's great to see a parent who has enough concern for their child's safety to actually do something about it.
 

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I guess my take is a bit different. If you are talking about the Leek, it lends itself perfectly to ice-pick stabs & jabs(no special training needed). I'm also reading that your concern is more abduction, than violent assault by person or persons his age. If that is the case, empty-hand, martial arts, etc, would be of little use against a full-grown man, mid-twenties +, whereas a couple dozen fast stabs to the lower belly/groin, or even an extended arm would be perfectly efficacious.

Dealing with an experienced street-fighter(gang banger), martial arts won't do much good, unless you've trained in a no-holds-barred-someone-going-to-the-ED-once-a-week school. I would say the biggest challenge would be getting him to the point where the draw-n-stick will be automatic. If (as I assume) he's a good kid, shivving someone would be a big social barrier to cross. If someone grabs his arm and starts heading him toward a door, is that enough to warrant that level of force? Shoving him into a car/van? He isn't being "violently assaulted" at that point, and many, many survivors of various assaults have reported that, until it was too late to respond, nothing was tripping their trigger. Kids rarely seem to fight, these days, so turning the "Beast" on/off is not as instinctive as it used to be. FYI: I also like the Leek, as it makes a painful impact fist-load for hammering.
 

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When I was thirteen I had to take a required course in "mechanical street-fighting" - basic martial arts techniques plus use of improvised weapons, like canes, umbrellas and sticks. We learned how to fall, throw, and how to defend against and trap a knife, among other things. I think that kind of a focus would be more useful than carrying a small blade.
 

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on another note, mace or pepper spray is considered non leathel force , where a knife could be considered a leathel force insurment. Bottom line, proper training and reaction should be your biggest concern. also , not just talking, but training to react is very important.
 

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Rob72, excellent post, I agree with you for the most part. I'm going to pick it apart a little because there are a few points I'd like to discuss individually.
Rob72 said:
I guess my take is a bit different. If you are talking about the Leek, it lends itself perfectly to ice-pick stabs & jabs(no special training needed). I'm also reading that your concern is more abduction, than violent assault by person or persons his age. If that is the case, empty-hand, martial arts, etc, would be of little use against a full-grown man, mid-twenties +, whereas a couple dozen fast stabs to the lower belly/groin, or even an extended arm would be perfectly efficacious.
Agreed, to a point, I'm a big fan of "shampoo self-defense" (lather, rinse, repeat as necessary :biggrin: ). However "a couple dozen fast stabs" in my mind is still going to take too long. My idea would be more along the lines of: "stab/slash him until he lets go (probably only 2-3 times but maybe more, who knows?) and as soon as he lets go, RUN. Just my 2-cents.

Rob72 said:
Dealing with an experienced street-fighter(gang banger), martial arts won't do much good, unless you've trained in a no-holds-barred-someone-going-to-the-ED-once-a-week school.
Agreed, for real self-defense, most MA systems are lacking. I freely admitt this even though I study and teach a somewhat "traditional" system (American Kenpo). However, in the "street" self-defense class I teach (and in my own training) I integrate a lot of "dirty fighting" courtesy of WWII combatives (Applegate, Fairbairn, Styers, etc.) and weapons work. The difference, once again, is often in the mindset. Martial-arts usually have somewhat of a competitive or "mutual combat" mindset. Combatives and "reality based" self-defense programs tend to focus on survival and escape at any cost.
Rob72 said:
I would say the biggest challenge would be getting him to the point where the draw-n-stick will be automatic. If (as I assume) he's a good kid, shivving someone would be a big social barrier to cross.
Agreed, I touched on this a little but you stated it more clearly.

Rob72 said:
If someone grabs his arm and starts heading him toward a door, is that enough to warrant that level of force? Shoving him into a car/van? He isn't being "violently assaulted" at that point,
If someone is taking you somewhere, it's because whatever they have in mind can't be done wherever you are currently located (crime-scene A). Most people who comply and allow themselves to be taken to a different location (crime-scene B) end up on the news weeks later when their body is finally found. In other words, do whatever it takes to NOT get taken away.


Rob72 said:
and many, many survivors of various assaults have reported that, until it was too late to respond, nothing was tripping their trigger.
Kids rarely seem to fight, these days, so turning the "Beast" on/off is not as instinctive as it used to be.
You are right on with this point. Once again, this goes to mindset. This is where people need to determine for themselves exactly what their "trigger" is. "What would it take for me to come unglued?" You used the term "Beast," it could also be called "killer-instinct," or "righteous indignation," or whatever catch phrase you like. Regardless, the idea is the same. This ties in to your point about being conditioned to "draw-n-stick." Unless you are mentally "ready to rock" you're probably going to freeze when the crisis takes place. Or as the quote from The Hunted states: "Once you are able to kill mentally, the physical part is easy."

Once again, good post. I enjoy the discussion and look forward to seeing your further thoughts.
 

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kenpotex said:
Once again, good post. I enjoy the discussion and look forward to seeing your further thoughts.
Thanks! & I agree with you as well. I said "a couple dozen...", since that can (and very probably would ) be done in extremis. People get shot 4-5 times from a 13 rnd magazine because both individuals are moving, and the weapon requires indexing. Grappling/shivving is face-to-face- if you can slap them, you can stick them. It's not at all uncommon for a stabbing victim to have received 30-100 penetrations. If the attacker dosen't realize his "victim" has a blade, he may well be stuck several times before he realizes it. Even when realizing that you are "being stuck", the urge not to turn your back can be overpowering, and so the grapple continues, since the "attacker" won't flee, and the "victim" is now on the offensive. Hell'uv an incentive not to get into a knife fight! :eek:

I assume that many folks here are acquainted with "SouthNarc", and Trace Rinaldi. If you haven't seen these, check out these videos (the site offers a couple of play options): http://www.shivworks.com/products.asp My next "toy" is going to be a Disciple............or maybe one of the re-released Halo III's.......decisions, decisions! :biggrin: The video looks like "fancy" work, if you aren't familiar with reverse edge weapons- in fact, it's very instinctive. Interesting combo of non-lethal/lethal strikes, immediately available.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Sorry , folks forgot to check back on this one.My boy has done a lot of training with my dad, a 1st dan in Shotokan. So as far as "basic" self-defense he's pretty well covered and kids of his own size aren't really a concern.My cousin spent a day with him when he was home on leave and showed him knife-fighting techniques that he learned in his training for the US Border Patrol and in the military ( more training than you'd think). So he at least has a basic understanding of that.My main thought here is that being armed with a Knife is better than not being armed at all. Unfortunately ,in todays world , most children who are abducted don't make it back home alive.So , even though a knife may be used against him , I think his chances if surviving an attempted abduction would be greater by having that knife.
 

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Rob72 said:
Thanks! & I agree with you as well. I said "a couple dozen...", since that can (and very probably would ) be done in extremis. People get shot 4-5 times from a 13 rnd magazine because both individuals are moving, and the weapon requires indexing. Grappling/shivving is face-to-face- if you can slap them, you can stick them. It's not at all uncommon for a stabbing victim to have received 30-100 penetrations. If the attacker dosen't realize his "victim" has a blade, he may well be stuck several times before he realizes it. Even when realizing that you are "being stuck", the urge not to turn your back can be overpowering, and so the grapple continues, since the "attacker" won't flee, and the "victim" is now on the offensive. Hell'uv an incentive not to get into a knife fight! :eek:
Good points, and like I said: lather, rinse, repeat. If the guy doesn't desist, keep doing the "sewing-machine" on him.
Rob72 said:
I assume that many folks here are acquainted with "SouthNarc", and Trace Rinaldi. If you haven't seen these, check out these videos (the site offers a couple of play options): http://www.shivworks.com/products.asp My next "toy" is going to be a Disciple............or maybe one of the re-released Halo III's.......decisions, decisions! :biggrin: The video looks like "fancy" work, if you aren't familiar with reverse edge weapons- in fact, it's very instinctive. Interesting combo of non-lethal/lethal strikes, immediately available.
Oh yeah, SouthNarc is the man. I've got Reverse Edge Methods Vol. I and am eagerly awaiting the release of Vol. II. In case you didn't know, SouthNarc is a moderator at a forum called Total Protection Interactive , it's cool to be able to talk to the guy on the video to discuss the techniques. There's several other "big names" that post to that forum as well.
DM said:
Sorry , folks forgot to check back on this one.My boy has done a lot of training with my dad, a 1st dan in Shotokan. So as far as "basic" self-defense he's pretty well covered and kids of his own size aren't really a concern.My cousin spent a day with him when he was home on leave and showed him knife-fighting techniques that he learned in his training for the US Border Patrol and in the military ( more training than you'd think). So he at least has a basic understanding of that.
Sounds like he's got a pretty decent foundation to build on. Keep it up. :)

DM said:
My main thought here is that being armed with a Knife is better than not being armed at all. Unfortunately ,in todays world , most children who are abducted don't make it back home alive.So , even though a knife may be used against him , I think his chances if surviving an attempted abduction would be greater by having that knife.
Definately. Like I said before, it's great to see a parent that will take an active part in making sure their kid has what it takes to stay safe.
 

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Ok in light of the posts I am going to probably get slammed as being to simple minded but here goes.

While I agree that teaching a child to defend themselves is almost mandatory today, I have to ask.... Your original question centered around a 13 year old child going to a friends, mall, out of town sporting and you being concerned enough about his safety to insist he carry some protection.

If your that concerned about his safety then why not accompany him to the out of town events (if you don't trust the other parents going), not allow him unsupervised in the mall, or have him change his friends. I am only asking not condeming or telling you how to raise your child etc. etc.

I face the same with a teenage daughter. I she has attended training and she shoots compeition with me regularly, but I still do not let her run free at the mall, roam around town with friends bored looking for something to do etc. etc. Even if it is going to a friends house I insist on having met the other parents first and knowing something of thier background. I just recently ended her "friendship" with another girl that became less than desireable. Maybe I am just a control freak.

Oh well just curious.

Steven
 

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I would counsel the lad, that if he carries a knife, he should tell no one about it, and most certainly advertise the fact that he's carrying by playing with it in public.

It should be 100% covert if at all possible.
 

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As already mentioned, an impact weapon is a much better selection over a folder. I teach Kubaton and both of my teenagers both carry min-mag flashlights which double as Kubatons. Nobody thinks twice about a kid with a flashlight and when used correctly will complete the task at hand most of the time (there is always times when running is much better).

Sad to say that people today do not accept a child carrying a knife as when we were childern (I am 49).
 
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