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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don't want to make this another thread about who carrys one in the chamber and who doesn't due to the abundance of those threads. I personally carry with one chambered.

Anyone see this video? I think that a lot of people will have a difficult time racking the slide in a stressful situation. Also you would have to practice a lot to become fluent with drawing, racking, and firing. This video does show with practice that not carrying one in the chamber isn't always much slower but a couple tenths of a second could mean your life. One good point I see mentioned about not having one chambered is if you were disarmed. This would give you a chance not to get shot and to disarm and immobilize your enemy.

YouTube - Pistol Carry Method : +1 VS Israeli ...
 

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Training will help a ton. I know that is not as sressful as a real situation, but muscle memory helps a lot.

Practice doesn't make perfect, but it'll make you better.
 

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Firstly with regard to this exact Video 2.4 Seconds is too long.

What if you get shot first in the left arm or shoulder?

And...what happens if your firearm malfs and you have a first round failure to feed?

You'll be prying the tire iron out of your skull.
 

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As I've often said, this business of cycling the slide while drawing is well and good - IF you have the luxury of having both hands free when you need to draw.

There is a good chance your off hand will be busy fending off the bad guy, moving a loved one out of the line of fire, or even injured and immobile.

And then, you're hosed.

Matt
 

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I agree with most of your comments. Since I don't OC, being disarmed is highly unlikely.This has been discussed to death here, but since I still smell like a newb I'll give my reasons for switching from carrying 'Israeli' to one in the pipe:

* Like you said, it's not really about the fraction of a second it takes to rack, it's more about that you're going to be highly stressed when you go to present and the less motor actions required, the better.

* However the most important reason I carry one in the pipe is that you may not have both hands free. In a self defense scenario, it's reasonable to expect that you may be fighting off the aggressor with one hand, and you'll be very glad to have a weapon that's ready to fire in the other.

I did have to go back and re-evaluate my cc selection and narrow it to those that I trusted to have one in the pipe.
 

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So how do you carry a revolver Israeli-style? Empty chamber under the hammer, or empty cylinder with a speed loader?

Matt
 

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Training will help a ton. I know that is not as sressful as a real situation, but muscle memory helps a lot.

Practice doesn't make perfect, but it'll make you better.
I fully agree.
 

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One good point I see mentioned about not having one chambered is if you were disarmed. This would give you a chance not to get shot and to disarm and immobilize your enemy.
Look out, here comes another personal opinion:

If you carry with the thought of "I'll carry in a manner safe if I am disarmed", why carry at all? Then you can't be disarmed and give the bad guy a gun.
 

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Interesting. Think I'll still carry with one in the pipe. Just one less thing to worry about, and since I practice frequently with my carry weapon, I know the weapon and am confident that I won't have an accidental discharge. BTW, I'm one of those old, chunky out of shape guys, so need all the advantage I can get.
 

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So true that if the BG is running at you with a baseball bat...your support side arm is going to be way too busy defensively protecting your precious noggin to have time to chamber a round.
 

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The Isralies used to carry firearms like that because during the days pre-1948 when the IDF was a bunch of different groups or resistance fighters, they didn't have a standard sidearm.

Even after 1948, they still didn't, and to this day, many times the people carrying the weapons don't own them - the weapons are stored in a communal arms room and when TSHTF, they draw weapons.

Isralie carry is reasonable if you are handing out a bunch of weapons of different kinds to people who are not very familiar with them, but need to carry them ocassionally.

Shut off the safety, insert mag and carry. If you need it, draw, rack and fire.

If that doesn't work for you...well.
That's your problem, but don't worry because the State of Israel has 1st rate medical care...

It's a training adaption to a poor equiptment situation.

That's it. It's not something special, and definately not something a person who actually owns and trains with a particular weapon should do.
 

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Funny thing about when this subject gets brought up online or IRL...

Folks know all about the method and what all but they never seem to know the _history_ of the method and _why_ the Israeli's _used_ to carry their arms in that manner some 50 yrs. ago, and that they no longer train in that method anymore having stopped doing so some 20+ yrs. ago now (!).

The Israeli now carry in condition one hammer down (DA) or striker active (SA).
The history is that when the country was first formed they were provided donations of firearms as military surplus from a wide variety of NATO countrys.
What came in was a hodge podge of this, that and the other. at that time as during the 50s there was largely no such thing as being able to carry in Condition Two (round chambered hammer down on a live round) with any degree of safety. As well there was no striker fired handgun technology ala Glock.
So in their earliest days for building a national defense force for the sake of continuity in training and because they had no handgun platform standardization as at that time it was decided that Condition Three (Hammer down, chamber empty with a live magazine inserted) was the best for them at that time means to standardize.
Further this method of carry and training was at that time normal across much of Europe as many other Militarys did same, and a few even still do train that way such as Greece. People and military as well as police had been carrying that way since long before the nation of Israel was formed.

FFWD into the late 80s when the country had filtered out all the junk and donated handguns to standardize just as the US and most other major _and_ serious militarys had/have. They moved away from that method to that which is most efficient and all conditions functional, carry as in Condition Two to which they have nearly 20 yrs. ago standardized on the striker fired Glock 17 9mm as the IDF's issue handgun, though unlike the US not all are issued a handgun. they also use Sig Sauer 'Classic' arms such as the P220 (full size 45 ACP), P226 (full size 9mm) and P228 (compact 9mm).

They dropped that 'Israeli Carry' method a literal generation ago as it's very much dated and wholly unnecessary.
Also it is slow/slower and it is wholly dependent on the operator having time (!) to react as well as assumptive that the operator will actually have a free hand available which even when not injured is not a good assumption as the arm/hand may be in use offensively or defensively.

I wish this subject would go away but it keeps popping back up year to year decade to decade and generation to generation.
Here in the US this same method _used_ to be the norm as for instruction with autoloaders toward police carry. It is not anymore and long ago died away. Akin to carrying a defensive revolver hammer down on an empty chamber.

The so called 'Israeli Carry' method is dead and beat.
Let it stay that way.

Why handicap yourself for no good reason at all.
Yes a handicapped person with much training and under certain close to optimal conditions can be just a functional and in this case quick as any other. BUT to do so requires great specific training, skill and physical capability...And at the end of the day you are still handicapped where as a non-handicapped person has greater margin of error with all other things being equal.

- Janq

Additional reading:
* Military equipment of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
* http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...-codes-awareness-color-codes.html#post1433633
* Volunteer, Enlist, Serve & Join the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) - Mahal, Nahal Haredi, Hesder, Garin - Mahal Guide & Assistant
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Funny thing about when this subject gets brought up online or IRL...

Folks know all about the method and what all but they never seem to know the _history_ of the method and _why_ the Israeli's _used_ to carry their arms in that manner some 50 yrs. ago, and that they no longer train in that method anymore having stopped doing so some 20+ yrs. ago now (!).

The Israeli now carry in condition one hammer down (DA) or striker active (SA).
The history is that when the country was first formed they were provided donations of firearms as military surplus from a wide variety of NATO countrys.
What came in was a hodge podge of this, that and the other. at that time as during the 50s there was largely no such thing as being able to carry in Condition Two (round chambered hammer down on a live round) with any degree of safety. As well there was no striker fired handgun technology ala Glock.
So in their earliest days for building a national defense force for the sake of continuity in training and because they had no handgun platform standardization as at that time it was decided that Condition Three (Hammer down, chamber empty with a live magazine inserted) was the best for them at that time means to standardize.
Further this method of carry and training was at that time normal across much of Europe as many other Militarys did same, and a few even still do train that way such as Greece. People and military as well as police had been carrying that way since long before the nation of Israel was formed.

FFWD into the late 80s when the country had filtered out all the junk and donated handguns to standardize just as the US and most other major _and_ serious militarys had/have. They moved away from that method to that which is most efficient and all conditions functional, carry as in Condition Two to which they have nearly 20 yrs. ago standardized on the striker fired Glock 17 9mm as the IDF's issue handgun, though unlike the US not all are issued a handgun. they also use Sig Sauer 'Classic' arms such as the P220 (full size 45 ACP), P226 (full size 9mm) and P228 (compact 9mm).

They dropped that 'Israeli Carry' method a literal generation ago as it's very much dated and wholly unnecessary.
Also it is slow/slower and it is wholly dependent on the operator having time (!) to react as well as assumptive that the operator will actually have a free hand available which even when not injured is not a good assumption as the arm/hand may be in use offensively or defensively.

I wish this subject would go away but it keeps popping back up year to year decade to decade and generation to generation.
Here in the US this same method _used_ to be the norm as for instruction with autoloaders toward police carry. It is not anymore and long ago died away. Akin to carrying a defensive revolver hammer down on an empty chamber.

The so called 'Israeli Carry' method is dead and beat.
Let it stay that way.

Why handicap yourself for no good reason at all.
Yes a handicapped person with much training and under certain close to optimal conditions can be just a functional and in this case quick as any other. BUT to do so requires great specific training, skill and physical capability...And at the end of the day you are still handicapped where as a non-handicapped person has greater margin of error with all other things being equal.

- Janq

Additional reading:
* Military equipment of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
* http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...-codes-awareness-color-codes.html#post1433633
* Volunteer, Enlist, Serve & Join the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) - Mahal, Nahal Haredi, Hesder, Garin - Mahal Guide & Assistant
Great post!

Also the youtuber poster an update

YouTube - Pistol Carry Method : +1 VS Israeli ...REVISITED
 

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This is why:
(Dont watch if you dont like the name of the link)

Store Owner Killed in Very Close Range Violent Robbery Shootout - NothingToxic.com
Wow. : (

Not only did he _lose_ time drawing the firearm as being NON FUNCTIONAL (!) to which he then in the _immediate_ at a distance of less than 6' found himself trying to buy time (which is impossible!) to charge his gun...But as a result of the gun jamming and not fully closing at battery he lost even more time as opportunity to save his own life.

Thereafter he panics. :(

Alternatively fumbling trying to clear what is as we third party viewers know is a major malfunction requiring a mag drop, slide cycle followed by reload to clear. Time. The clock does not stop nor do the BGs as being active.
In sheer panic he resorts to simply pointing the gun at the BGs as if to say go away 'Bang Bang' you are dead. That only works in movies and with children. :|

Sad thing is in this case he was going to get shot regardless.
Those boys drew first and clearly they had no issue with using their guns, which were not artificially handicapped by some silly 'Israeli Carry' method. They came prepared with weapons readied before hand.
Still though he may have been able to take one or two with him to the grave if only he had most properly setup his life defense tool when he did have time and opportunity to do so...And that means being kept/carried as charged with a round in the chamber.

Sad and unfortunate.

- Janq
 

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An empty chamber is just as fast and fine, under ideal circumstances, like on a sunny day in the back yard with the camera filming your best.
 

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Wow. : (

Not only did he _lose_ time drawing the firearm as being NON FUNCTIONAL (!) to which he then in the _immediate_ at a distance of less than 6' found himself trying to buy time (which is impossible!) to charge his gun...But as a result of the gun jamming and not fully closing at battery he lost even more time as opportunity to save his own life.

Thereafter he panics. :(

Alternatively fumbling trying to clear what is as we third party viewers know is a major malfunction requiring a mag drop, slide cycle followed by reload to clear. Time. The clock does not stop nor do the BGs as being active.
In sheer panic he resorts to simply pointing the gun at the BGs as if to say go away 'Bang Bang' you are dead. That only works in movies and with children. :|

Sad thing is in this case he was going to get shot regardless.
Those boys drew first and clearly they had no issue with using their guns, which were not artificially handicapped by some silly 'Israeli Carry' method. They came prepared with weapons readied before hand.
Still though he may have been able to take one or two with him to the grave if only he had most properly setup his life defense tool when he did have time and opportunity to do so...And that means being kept/carried as charged with a round in the chamber.

Sad and unfortunate.

- Janq
That video illustrates several of the reasons I've taken to carrying revolvers more often than not.
 

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That video illustrates several of the reasons I've taken to carrying revolvers more often than not.
It does present an argument for as much.

Persons in specific who are not well trained (beyond occasional shooting of cans & pumpkins on fence posts and holes in man sized paper at a range once or thrice a year if that) and/or who are gun adverse as well those who are physically handicapped too would do well to seriously consider keeping/carrying a large capacity revolver rather than an auto loader.

Eight rounds of never gonna jam revolver is nothing but heat.

Honestly, as I live in 10 rd. cap limit MA the next handgun I buy will very likely be an eight round revolver chambered in .38/357M...or 10MM/.40 S&W (6 rd capacity).
Bulkier but absolutely immune to dust, grunge, lint and most any mechanical error.
Giving up just one round as compared to my 9MM 1911 and being equal to that of my .45 1911s.

- Janq
 

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That video illustrates several of the reasons I've taken to carrying revolvers more often than not.
The referenced video illustrates why I shoot as much as I do, and why I am completely familiar with the firearms upon which I stake my life and those of my family. I don't think it matters much if you carry a revolver or a semi auto or even a sawed off. If you are not intimately familiar with the weapon, you shouldn't be carrying it in the first place. You don't learn how to operate and accurately shoot a gun by osmosis.
 
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