[Crestwood1001]

Hey guys, quick question that I have been unable to find a solid answer for. I live and work in Pennsylvania, I have a license to carry. I work for a very large retailer as asset protection. The city I work in is among the worst in the state for violent crime, we regularly in counter violent individuals, and are told that if something goes south we disengage and call the police. Company policy says we cannot carry a firearm or Any weapon on company property. Most days I carry anyway, knowing full well that if I'm found out I will lose my job. I consider the risk worth it because there have been incidents lately in nearby stores of security being attacked and stabbed.
I know in some states it is illegal for an employer to fire an employee for carrying a long as it's never exposed unless in the act of self defense. Does anyone know if this applies in PA?

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[Mtnmanca]

I live in CA and with my job we can't carry due to the fact that its a federal job and would be on fed grounds. Private businesses though is another story. It's up to the supervisor from business to business to decide whether or not you can carry.

 

[AdoptedTexan]

They will fire you in a heart beat if you're in violation of company policy. If you have to use your gun, they probably won't stand behind you no matter how justified your action. Maybe you need a new job.

 

[JDKinman]

I know in some states it is illegal for an employer to fire an employee for carrying a long as it's never exposed unless in the act of self defense. Does anyone know if this applies in PA?

In all honesty, I don't know of a single state in which an employer cannot fire you for a blatant violation of company policy. If your company has a "no carrying of firearms on company property" and you're caught, you can be fired.

Now. . . some states like here in Texas have amended their castle doctrine laws to include automobiles as an extension of your domicile and thus making it legal to keep a concealed firearm in your vehicle even if company policy states to the contrary. But several years ago when I was researching various states' laws for my novel (Above Reproach), in visiting and talking with the various state attorney generals, companies have the right to terminate your employment if you are found or caught carrying a firearm inside the building/office/plant/et al and there is a clear policy prohibiting that.

Loss prevention, asset protection, in-house security or whatever you want to call it comes with its own Pandora's Box when it comes to carrying a weapon on you. Many companies will consider you terminated the instant you brandish a weapon, even if it is in your own defense and therefore you are now hanging out all on your own in terms of liability should anyone (including the bad guy) get harmed by you.

You can thank the ambulance chasing lawyers and spineless insurance companies for creating mass groups of sheeple in the workplace.

But while traveling and interviewing and researching for my book, I encountered a number of folks who had their CHL and who very quietly continued to carry on the job as their attitude was that they could find another job and even survive a lawsuit if it came down to that, but trying to rustle up another life was a bit more difficult. They all, to a person, knew full well that if they were discovered that they would, in all likelihood, be terminated immediately but were willing to risk it.

Quite frankly, if your store is that dangerous, they need to be hiring commissioned law enforcement officers to work security. But so many retailers are absolute cheap-asses when it comes to protecting and taking care of their employees that it doesn't surprise me when I read about situations like yours.

Good luck and stay subtle about your little "insurance plan" you carry with you.

JD

 

[Crestwood1001]

I wish jobs were easy enough to come by that I could just easily get another job, I'm always looking. In the case of carrying now, it obviously is something that if I ever was in a situation that I drew my firearm, the last thing I would be concerned about would be my job. In PA the castle doctrine applies to home, car and WORKPLACE. How would that effect me carrying at work.

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[JDKinman]

In PA the castle doctrine applies to home, car and WORKPLACE. How would that effect me carrying at work.

If you had to pull and fire your gun while on the clock, the law would consider you an "agent of your employer" and your employer would be liable for any and all damage or harm that resulted in the incident. However, because you blatantly violated your company's policy, they could easily take you to court and sue you for whatever compensation they might have had to pay out--and you would be fighting not only your company's legal team, but your company's insurance lawyers as well.

Castle Doctrine laws vary from state to state, but it is not a blank check to draw and fire and expect no repercussions, criminally or civilly. In most states, your case will be hauled in front of a grand jury to determine just cause in accordance with the law. Likewise, not all states grant immunity from civil recourse via castle doctrine law so depending upon exactly how the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has their law/s worded, you could win the battle and lose the war.

I'd do some serious talking with some of your local assistant district attorneys and if this is that big of a deal with you, I'd invest a half-hour or hour's worth of time with a good criminal defense attorney who is very versed and familiar with PA's castle doctrine and self-defense laws.

But most of all, I'd simply avoid situations with scumbag customers or shoplifters that could lead to that serious of an altercation. The store/company is insured against the loss--let them eat it if they don't care enough to hire commissioned LE off-duty types to assist you guys.

JD

 

[Crestwood1001]

We work closely with and have a great relationship with the Psp as we are in their coverage, they come fast and hard when we need them. I have good friends and family members in the barracks that covers us. We do our best to avoid altercations but you would be surprised what the guy that looks like average Joe will do when confronted.

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[SIGguy229]

Have you checked out Handgunlaw.us ?

 

[JDKinman]

We do our best to avoid altercations but you would be surprised what the guy that looks like average Joe will do when confronted.

Oh, not really. I'm ex-law enforcement and have dealt with plenty of "but sir, he's a GOOD MAN" types as it was taking five of us to get his dusted PCP backside on the ground and secured. :smile:

I don't even know why the big retailers even bother with loss prevention or asset protection or risk management in regards to shoplifters. They never (or at best, rarely) prosecute because when they try, the district attorney's office throws out a plea for a reduced charge and the scumbag is out right back at it again.

I was a federal puke in my day and we were strictly prohibited, big time, from taking any part-time work that might involve us having to make an arrest and subsequently testify in state court over it. That was fine with me--I saw enough scumbags during normal working hours without having to go out and try to find more.

You're in a tough position, but again, as far as shoplifters go, I'd just say to hell with it and let 'em stroll on out the door. Shrink is factored in to every retailers budget and P&Ls--hospital bills and lawsuits over apprehension of shoplifters is not.

JD

 

[lionround]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^

I know jobs are hard to come by right now. I am very thankful to have a good one. Keep looking because if you insist on carrying at work, and if the circumstances are as you describe, I can't blame you, just know full well that if you draw your weapon during working hours or on company property, you are on your own.

As JD said two posts up, you may be going up against the following 1. The Police 2. The DA 3. Your employer and their insurance company and 4. If you have shot/killed someone, their lawyer. Sounds a little too formidable for me over some electronics or a pair of Nikes. (Since I don't where you work, I made an assumption.)

 

[Crestwood1001]

I would say where I work but I'm not gonna, shouldn't be hard to guess when I say huge retailer. Between myself and the other guy I work with we easily average 30 apprehensions a month, in the 6 months since I got the job I'm approaching $20,000 in apprehensions.

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[GetSmith]

I would be more concearned about loseing my permit than my job. I you are found to be carrying and bandish/fire your gun while at work against company policy what are your states laws for that. I would think you could loose your permit. I also would think that once that was on your record it would be difficult to get another permit again regardless of the state you applied in. I know you are'nt commiting a fellony but I would check with your issueing office about how carry at work is addressed and if you have the right in a prohibited workplace environment.

I wouold feel much less secure without the permit to carry. That would be worse than loseing a job and finding another. If you want to carry at work in a situation like that get training to become an armed security guard. Asset protection has NO place for a firearm in my opionion.

 

[cdcruiser]

I know in Tenn.you cannot be charged for taking your firearm onto company property that has a no weapon policy but you can be fired for breaking company policy bottom line look for another job but I probally would still carry it is easier to find a new job than a new life jmho

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[SCXDm9]

Get a new job or leave the gun in your car.... just my opinion.


You are plying with fire in soooo many ways!

 

[BigJon10125]

IMO it is better to be alive and looking for a job than dead. It is a tough situation and a PITA to say the least. It is a position we have been forced into. I prefer not to take chances with my life. While taking chances with a job sucks, nothing is worth my kids being without me.

 

[spdracr39]

I agree, its ultimately your decision to violate company policy but it is their decision to enforce it. I would find another employer or not carry on their property but that is just my opinion.
.

 

[rammerjammer]

I CANT carry at work.

 

[Taurahe]

I believe florida has a law prohibiting employers from firing employees who legally concealed carry but i am not sure of the exact details. My suggestion would be to consult a law reference instead of the forum for an exact answer, but more than likely, you will lose your job AND your employer may be able to bring criminal prosecution against you as well.... If you are going to break the law you should prob at least know what is before you do so...... ignorance has never been a valid excuse

 

[Aceoky]

This is posted on another thread here

FS 790.251 (3)(2)(e) No public or private employer may terminate the employment of or otherwise discriminate against an employee, or expel a customer or invitee for exercising his or her constitutional right to keep and bear arms or for exercising the right of self-defense as long as a firearm is never exhibited on company property for any reason other than lawful defensive purposes.

 

[Randalls]

Private property rights, matter.

If you're willing to lose your job if someone sees your gun, than do what you must.

Otherwise you should get another job.