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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone,

I have been reading a lot of stories on situations where a gun has been pointed at or fired at people, and the BG gets out of it without a scratch and the/a GG gets hit. The Tacoma Mall incident for instance. The CCW was behind the BG and said something like "drop your weapon" and the BG turned and shot him 5 times.
I recently watched a store security video where a punk walks up to the clerk, points the gun at his mid section and demands the cash. A few seconds later, he shoots the clerk 2 or 3 times and runs.
In this last story, if a ccw had been there, and was able to draw, I believe he/she should have just drawn, and unloaded without saying a word. Same goes for the first story. I think that once a BG points a weapon, they forfeit their life at that moment. If you give the BG a chance to turn and shoot, they often do. In a quickie mart robbery, do you really think the BG is gonna just stop, put their hands in the air, and surrender after you tell them to?
These situations are ones I think we need to understand well, and I'd like to hear what you folks think ?
 

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I have been CCWing for almost 40 years. I was orginally taught that if you draw it, you shoot it. That's it. Had to do it twice. I never had a single regret about it.
No talking, no "drop the gun" just shoot.
If you're talking how fearful of your life are you? You're not a LEO.

Just my .02

AFS
 

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Hmmm, maybe the emergence of a new gunfight rule, "No talking in a gunfight!"
 

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Discussion Starter #5
What I'm getting at here is in certain situations, specifically a nut case shooting up a mall or quick mart type robberies, armed citizens tend to hesitate and give a warning and then get shot. When it's 100% clear that there is a BG with a gun, why do so many think they have to give a warning? The guy at the Tacoma Mall -Kowen? I think his name is, is now partially paralyzed because he handled it wrong.

Hey Rob72 What are you talking about? Forums are here to start discussions right? I'm just trying to get a discussion going on the hessitation/warning ccw's do. What's with the need to talk, counselors make good money comment??? or am I missing your
meaning? ;-)
 

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FNP-9er,

I'm not Rob, but I'm pretty sure he was just makin' a point using humor.
 

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This is always a pretty hot topic. :wink:

We are not LEO's (most of us) - but in a situation where it is plain as we can tell that bad is about to happen, we have a serious decision to make - intervene or not.

If we go the route of intervene then I do think verbalizing is probably an invite to a lead hors d'ouvres, unless - we have cover. I can envisage securing good cover (not just concealment) and very loudly verbalizing which would distract BG initially and maybe give a clue as to his next move, and so ours.

Verbalizing with no cover will bring the equation down to how fast you can react as BG lines up on you for his shot - and we'd be into small parts of seconds.

Every situation is different and for many I'd say ''play it as you see it''.
 

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This is a hot topic and there is no real answer to this, it is a per person answer. Because I am reading this from the outside looking in and have time to think about it I have two questions that will not be asked till after the trigger has been pulled. Would the BG really of shot the GG and what is going to happen to me now that I shot or killed the BG. You want to think of your self as doing a good thing and a lot of people would back you up but the eyes of the law are blind to such things. Did you save a life or not? Bottom line you just might end up in jail for a few years and if you don't you will more then likely be broke from paying lawyers to keep you out of jail. You might lose your job, you for sure lost your CCW, gun and more then likely your right to own another. Again this is all hypothetical and this is just one of many if's and maybes. You never know.


What do you think?

Here are some links to stories of people that have defended themselves. It sort of give you guide lines.

http://www.gunlaws.com/CCW-SelfDefenseAwardees.htm

http://www.sacsconsulting.com/ccw_RealStories.htm
 

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P95Carry said:
This is always a pretty hot topic. :wink:

We are not LEO's (most of us) - but in a situation where it is plain as we can tell that bad is about to happen, we have a serious decision to make - intervene or not.

If we go the route of intervene then I do think verbalizing is probably an invite to a lead hors d'ouvres, unless - we have cover. I can envisage securing good cover (not just concealment) and very loudly verbalizing which would distract BG initially and maybe give a clue as to his next move, and so ours.

Verbalizing with no cover will bring the equation down to how fast you can react as BG lines up on you for his shot - and we'd be into small parts of seconds.

Every situation is different and for many I'd say ''play it as you see it''.
+1:yup:
 

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FNP-9er said:
Hey Rob72 What are you talking about? Forums are here to start discussions right? I'm just trying to get a discussion going on the hessitation/warning ccw's do. What's with the need to talk, counselors make good money comment??? or am I missing your
meaning? ;-)
No, no offense intended!:wave: I was indirectly referring to the CC'er at the Tacoma Mall, my point being that counsellors and negotiators have the luxury of talking things down in a controlled environment

I experienced this myself, when I tried a transition from EMS/hospital to corrections. Talking things down keeps the peace, but sometimes you just have to kick a** & take names. I was too much in the "de-escalation" mode("Just not enough of an SOB", in the words of my supervising Lt. Betty and Mr. Shonts neck of the woods- Middle Tenn Reception Center). I like to think I've evolved, somewhat.:biggrin2:
 

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"When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk" :image035:
 

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The bad move on the man in the mall, IIRC, was he drew, then reholstered before he spoke to the BG. The BG shot without hesitation and didn't even care that the guy did or didn't have a gun.

The scenario that I envision (keyword: envision) is:
I see a BG doing something that warrants me drawing...I draw and point BEFORE I get his attention if possible. If he brings his weapon on me, my finger is already pulling. It's too late at this point to make any attempts at conversation. If the gun's pointed at you...It's shoot or get shot. Either way, bullets are likely.
 

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Problem there is unless your behind some good cover like chris said, there is a chance you will be recieving some reurn fire. I hate to say it but if i was in that mall and had no loved ones in danger, i doubt i would have gotten involved if the chance to beat feet were present.
 

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I guess I'll never really know how I'll react unless I'm faced with a situation, but I can possibly see myself reacting both ways depending on circumstances. If I'm caught in a situation where shooting has already started, say I'm caught in the mall/store, etc and the BG is walking through the place shooting, then I'm just going take aim and fire without saying a word. I could envision another circumstance where the BG say has gun drawn on a clerk, and I'm behind him and he is unaware of me, that I would quitely draw, take aim, and then let him know that if he moves, twitches, or farts, I'm pulling the trigger. I guess even that would depend on how crazy the BG was acting. If he looked really out of control, I'd probably just shoot.
 

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While taking into consideration all of the hypothecial scenarios, the one question that keeps popping into my mind is:

Why do you carry?

It seems to me that the answer to this simple question would resolve any questions that arise with regard to all the Ifs and Whatifs.
 

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So, as a "Newbie", I've learned the First Rule of a Gunfight is to "Take a Gun". Sounds like the Second Rule might be "No Jabbering", huh? :argue:

I believe a response or the outcome of a response would possibly be dictated by state law - in Texas, one (or a family member) must be in fear of bodily harm or loss of something "irreplacable" or somesuch. Don't know about other states.

I'd probably find cover and then evaluate next action. If BG approached, its a different answer than if he's walking away from me.

I guess it becomes the "Play it by Ear" at that point. :confused:
 

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exposurecontrol said:
I guess I'll never really know how I'll react unless I'm faced with a situation, but I can possibly see myself reacting both ways depending on circumstances. If I'm caught in a situation where shooting has already started, say I'm caught in the mall/store, etc and the BG is walking through the place shooting, then I'm just going take aim and fire without saying a word. I could envision another circumstance where the BG say has gun drawn on a clerk, and I'm behind him and he is unaware of me, that I would quitely draw, take aim, and then let him know that if he moves, twitches, or farts, I'm pulling the trigger. I guess even that would depend on how crazy the BG was acting. If he looked really out of control, I'd probably just shoot.
I think that is very close to my thinking as well.

Remember this, no matter what you envision 'your encounter' to be, when it happens, it isn't going to be like any of them. :confused:

What you do in those few seconds will determine whether you live, or die, or spend lots of time with Bubba and Tyrone, or walk away with the uneasy feeling that maybe you could have done it different.

You can't know what it is until it happens.

However, I believe that's lots of quality training will see that you increase your chances for survival.

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problem. How long it lasts may depend on how well you do it." ~ Clint Smith :yup:
 

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Jeffg330 said:
Problem there is unless your behind some good cover like chris said, there is a chance you will be recieving some reurn fire. I hate to say it but if i was in that mall and had no loved ones in danger, i doubt i would have gotten involved if the chance to beat feet were present.

Jeffg330: I agree with you. If my loved ones are not in danger I getting as far as I can away from the threat than contact authorities.
 

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I agree with most everyting that has been stated.
werking the legal angles (god i hate that!) if ya shot him in the back, no matter how crazy he was acting, because store surveillance may not have audio and most of the video quaklity sucks, i think some ACLU lawyer would chew ya to pieces. sad but true IMHO.
maybe you'd get outta criminal charges but the civil stuff would kill ya unfortunately.
would it change how i'd react? at that exact moment lawyers don't matter or enter the equation, but 5 minutes later they will.
cover and being pre-aimed would be a huge benefit/prerequisite before opting to say anything...and remember twinkies and ho hos aint cover.
 
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