[APachon]

Juveniles attack customer with knife by Jamie Nash of the Clevaland Advocate (Tx)

There is nothing unusual about police being called to the Cleveland Wal-mart, since the store is the frequent target of shoplifters. However, the Cleveland Police Department has been called twice in as many weeks because of violence.
On Monday, January 17 just before four o'clock, Officer Kevin Cooke was dispatched to Wal-mart with no details given. Cooke had just exited his patrol car when a man approached him and pointed out two white males entering the store. The man advised Cooke that they were carrying knives. Cooke followed the men into the store and saw them join two women who were already in a checkout line.
The officer approached the suspects and asked them to step outside. Once outside, Cooke asked if they had knives and one admitted he did, voluntarily relinquishing the weapon. When asked their ages, the suspects told Cooke they were seventeen and sixteen.
Cooke was then approached by fifty-seven year old Salvador Garcia, who said his encounter with the suspects was the reason the officer had been called. Garcia said he was shopping in the back of the store when he saw the pair, who he recognized as his neighbors. He said the seventeen year old, later identified as William Casey Lingle, had called him by a profane name. Garcia said he then approached the two and advised them that they should 'be careful', which is when Lingle allegedly took a knife from his front pants pocket and threatened him with it.
One witness says a large crowd gathered but no one tried to intervene until the mother of one of the two suspects saw what was happening. The mother then allegedly approached Garcia apologizing profusely.
Garcia agreed to make a sworn statement and Lingle was arrested. Lingle later posted bond and was released. Both men were from Splendora. No information is available on the juvenile suspect.

Woudl you all act differently if it is a Juvenile that threatens you? How would you have halndled this if you were CCWing in this Wally World?

On a side note, talk about a kid in dire need of an arse whoop'n. All the mom did was apologize. Had this been me and my mom was there, I would not have left the Wally World under my own steam.

~A

 

[Bud White]

Would depend on the the sistuation if i felt i was in danger which this guy mst have felt then i think i would have presented my firearm and ordered them down

 

[APachon]

this goes to the question in what your locality has on the books for citizens arrest. This in my eyes is a lawful detention but man does this get into grey area real quick.

~A

 

[rfurtkamp]

The problem as described is that both parties are at fault: The kids for being stupid, and Garcia for calling them on it with what would be considered a veiled threat.

I'd have to hold both if I did anything, and it wouldn't be pretty. I'd also have to be dead certain that the kid with the knife was serious and not joking with a neighbor and this wasn't some normal event.

In Wal-Mart I know that the camera coverage is near 100% if not 100% these days and anything I do in that regard is going to be held under huge scrutiny.

I'm not saying I wouldn't intervene, but it becomes substantially more difficult if I saw the entire scene as described.

 

[Euclidean]

I've taught so many kids who have been arrested this seems trivial to me. Understand that despite the stereotypes, very very few of these kids are real hardened criminals.

Tactics I use to calm down rough youth:

#1. Use their language. Act incredulous, like you don't take it seriously. Be sarcastic and talk like a rapper or a black comedian (Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle style, not Bill Cosby).

"Man homeboy how come you got to be like that? What you tryin' to do, pretend you not some kind of emo? You trying to pour a big old barrel of hate-o-rade all over me?"

"What? Excuse me did you just throw THAT wad of paper in MY classroom? Uh uh girl I don't think so! You gonna march yo bony little butt right over there and throw that piece of shizzle AWAY. RIGHT NOW."

If they're really perturbed this doesn't work, but it will get a laugh and calm them down even if it doesn't always create compliance. Acting like a dork calms them down at least.

#2. If they're serious and not just a little worked up, start out being their friend but be clear and serious. "Now come on boys, put those knives away." Try to be as nice about it, but sincere.

Argue by steps. For instance if I want Victor to sit with his chair flat on the floor it goes like this:

"Hi Victor. Are you comfortable?"

"I can't believe you're comfortable sitting like that."

"Hey why don't you try putting all the legs of the chair on the floor?"

"Victor, please sit in your chair correctly now."

Do not ask anything more than 3 times. If you say it more than 3 times, you're begging. You'll notice the fourth time I commanded Victor.

#3. Once you've moved past the buddy stage, you're in the "en loco parentis" stage. Remember, a teenager is still a child and YOU are the adult. Don't let them get to you.

Be clear, direct, and non threatening. Do not threaten and fail to deliver. It's okay to repeat the command once, twice tops.

"Victor sit in your chair properly."

"Victor, I am going to count to 3. If you do not sit in your chair correctly by then, you're getting a referral."

Now in this situation, and you think this is serious, index your tool with your preferred hand, take your stance, and project your off hand outwards. Make your body language clear.

"Boys put those knives away."

"Stay away from me."

"I said go away. If you come any closer I will call the authorities and defend myself."

If it goes this far, well you got that 1 kid in a million who really is bad news. I've never met a bad kid but I'm sure there's one somewhere.

From there.... I shudder to think of it.

I'll be honest. There are a handful of people I do not think I could ever shoot even in self defense and not go insane shortly thereafter. I don't think I could shoot any of my immediate family members in self defense. If I did it, I would fall completely apart. I don't think I could defend myself against my students without falling all to pieces either. I would hate myself forever every day so much I think I'd rather just die.

I will also walk up to a student when I see them on a street corner wearing their colors in a bad neighborhood completely unarmed and talk to them with no regard for my own safety.

In conclusion, the best thing to do is create rapport with a little self edifying humor and a touch of sincerity. Use your negotiating skills and wit. Teenagers are typically pretty easy to outwit. The few that aren't are either big troublemakers who hate everyone's class except for yours, or they're on the honor roll. Showing you genuinely care about their well being works 99.9% of the time. Keep in mind however true rapport takes weeks to build.

 

[APachon]

Euclidean, that seems like a lot of work for a person holding a knife with malicious intent. I know it being a kid does cause trepidation, however, I want to go home to my loved ones. Why are we more apt to present and tell them to grab floor than say draw and stop the threat. Would you act differently if it was an adult? What if the juvenile advanced on you? How would you act then???

~A

 

[F350]

If it were a serious threat, armed with a knife, under 21 feet....just cleaning out the gene pool.

 

[APachon]

Ditto F350.

[devil's advocate]At what point do you determine it to be a serious threat? When the knife is out, when he is slowly walking towards you, or when BG is moving with some expedience?[/devil's advocate]

~A

 

[FortyFive]

I am not an authority on this stuff but offer these comments. A police officer has more than one means to disarm a person with a gun, club, spray training with arms feet etc. So a police officer with partner will flat clear the situation right now. A person caught up in something like being faced with a knife should cease talking and get away from the situation if feaseable. It would be impractable in my opinion to draw on a person in a store, there are so many things to go wrong. I would have my hand on my gun and shoot as a last resort while retreating.
An officer in this situation will have perhaps 3 organizations and a city backing him if he shoots, we will have zero backing us.

 

[KC135]

Ability, opportunity, jeopardy. If all three are present, you have the right to defend yourself in most places.

 

[nighthawk]

Sorry, if your threatened your are threatened. As a population we have become far too tolerant of this type of behavior. With a crowd and camera covering me, if the juvenile made the slightest move towards me I'd clean the gene pool. There is no excuse for a juvenile to pull a knife on anyone, especially an elder. What ever happened to respecting your neighbors and your elders? I'm not going to stoop his level and try to speak his language or become his buddy. He has made a fatal mistake. The mother should have taught him better and beat him more often. :crackhead Yes I'd of cracked his head. Shame on him, shame on the parents and shame on us for letting this type of situation happen.

 

[APachon]

Kudos, NH

~A

 

[Euclidean]

I suppose this is where I must disagree with the rest of the pack.

I'm sure somewhere there's a young man who genuinely wants to hurt someone.

But I haven't met him.

What I have met are a lot of people who are doing exactly what our society has taught them to do. They've been taught to act like delinquents, and that's exactly what they do.

I agree there does come a point in a human being's maturity where they have full command of their faculties, a time where they alone are responsible for what they do even if they are very young.

The trouble is if a kid does one stupid thing, and doesn't have parents to speak of, our system railroads him into a world of Byzantine bureaucracy. He is forever branded.

They take these kids that are just a little rough around the edges and group them with the ones who've already stolen a car or threatened another boy with a piece of pipe. They get the idea that this behavior is normal.

More than anything, a young adolescent craves the approval of his peers and will do anything to get it. Underneath the tough surface however is an unsure, developing person who thinks this is okay but just doesn't know.

Ultimately, I realize it's on every person to decide if they will straighten up and fly right, or be a pox on society.

However, I will have no one say of me that I did not do something to help them take the higher path, nor will they say of me I never told them they were not capable of better things. I don't just say that I mean it.

I'm no paragon of knowledge wisdom nor virtue myself, but I think a child has the right to expect himself capable of pulling himself up by his own boot straps. Kids overcome some really hard things in life that I can't begin to imagine sometimes.

The fact is though, the boy in front of you with the knife has a choice. He can do something that he will regret, or he can run away and possibly learn what he is doing is wrong. I will guide that choice if it's at all possible.

 

[F350]

APachon

At what point do you determine it to be a serious threat?

I don't think it is any thing that can be "quantified", I rode on patrol with a buddy that was a sheriff’s deputy for 5 years, there is a sixth sense, that comes from a combination of things, general posture, facial expression, tone of voice along with anything said, and if close enough the eyes.

Euclidean

I'm sure somewhere there's a young man who genuinely wants to hurt someone.

But I haven't met him.

About 15 years ago a buddy of mine did.........he's taking a dirt nap right now because he "didn't want to hurt anyone". I suppose that is one reason I have a bit of a hard attitude.

 

[Euclidean]

Well I suppose that's something that we're all different on.

I hate hurting people. I'd much rather talk someone down if it's at all possible.

But I'll sure as hell do it. When I look at myself in the mirror, I realize that I want to live at any cost, even if it means doing something I will hate.

I do lots of things that I hate every single day. It's called living in the real world. I hope I never have to hurt anybody.

I also hoped I'd never have to find out what's it's like to live in a bad inner city neighborhood. I also hoped I'd never be involved in a car wreck. I also hoped no one I never knew would be killed by a drunk driver.

Hope and good intentions are fine so long as they're paired with Plan B.

The way I look at it, I'm not directly harming anybody except perhaps myself by what I say, do, and believe. I don't deserve to die just because I hate hurting people.

I think, I evaluate, I change my own ideas. I learn new skills and rethink old ones. But I also pursue better tools and training.

At the end of Hamlet, only the scholar and the soldier survive. Some of us indentify more with the scholar, some are more like the soldier. It's not a binary condition either; it's a spectrum.

It's fine to think that the best way to stop someone from killing you with a knife is to shoot them before they can do so. It's absolutely worthless however to merely think about it. You actually have to be able to do it. You must possess the tool and learn how to use it.

It's great if you can consistently nail a headshot at 25 yards with a snubnose revolver. However, if you can't talk down a typical 17 year old, I wonder how you function in any environment short of full scale combat.

The scholar must learn that thinking is useless if it cannot be put into action, and the soldier needs to learn to think before he acts.

 

[Bumper]

I'm afraid a kid (16 or 17) is not a barrier you can hide behind to get you off the hook when you seriously threaten someone with a knife. You will be just as dead by the hands of a 16/17 year old as you would be from a 40 year old. While I expect that I would be in deeper doodoo than if it were a 40 year old I was forced to shoot, I would absolutely be in it. :frown:

 

[ExSoldier]

Juvenile Violence

WELCOME TO MY WORLD. I teach in an inner city school. I have for eight years. I can't count the incidents of violence including shootings and stabbings and gang rapes that have happened in the two schools I have served in the inner city (both high schools). Numerous assaults on faculty members, too. I have gotten so many threats it's not even funny. Got one just two days ago.

I'm generally able to defuse most situations. Others have been handled by the students on the front line of the football team whom I tutor before and after school. Most of these HUGE dudes have records themselves and are now seeking to better themselves in a positive manner. They won't play with some punk looking to disrupt their chances by damaging a favorite teacher!

There have been a few occasions when I have been forced to use the Aikido I love so much. Mostly on autistic students "acting out" but once in awhile on somebody angry at me for their grade. No administrator has EVER reprimanded me on the handling of any of these situations. I'm lucky that when I got to my current assignment, my ummmmm "reputation" preceeded me from the other school. I actually get along very well with just about everybody: THUGS and Nerds alike.

 

[QKShooter]

This Puzzles Me

There is a certain small percentage of the younger population that place absolutely no value on human life. They have no regard for anybody.
They have no idea HOW ANYTHING works ~ only that they turn a faucet handle & water comes out.
They have no human compassion & no conception of love.
There is no "fellow man" with them & not even any "Honor Among Thieves."
They have no idea of what structured society is or how they should attempt to fit into it.
They are lost in a total fantasy world of "Whatever I Want At Any Cost" & they could just as easily kill or torture a puppy as drink a Mountain Dew.
I've only ever seen that same cold, blank, face & totally dead eyes on captured adult serial killers.
We had some "kids" here in Pittsburgh some years ago that broke into the PGH Zoo at night & pulled all the legs off the living flamingos. It was just "fun" ~
Now these same types of young "lost souls" have switched to violent "Home Invasions" & seem very willing to kill anybody on the other side of the door.
It's downright sickening.
And...when we are elderly, handicapped, or senior citizens -- we are all going to have "Easy Prey Targets" stamped on our respective old asses.

 

[SGeringer]

I don't care who is presenting an illegal deadly threat....if my life is in danger, I'll involve my CCW if prudent and applicable. And if my beloved Mil or her daughter in imminent danger....Junior there will die twice before he hits the floor.

 

[ExSoldier]

Juvenile Violence

It's downright sickening.
And...when we are elderly, handicapped, or senior citizens -- we are all going to have "Easy Prey Targets" stamped on our respective old asses.

Ask Jeff Cooper (rapidly nearing entering his ninth decade on the planet) if he agrees with you. COL Cooper is still the pre-eminent authority on the defensive use of the 1911 pistol in hostile encounters. He's called the Father of American Pistolcraft for a reason.

I see this type of vermin all the time. One sits in the front row of my classroom. He only comes to school to score dope and hit on the chicks (except he called them his hoes). In fact, he was bragging to me about his brother currently in jail for armed robbery and home invasion. One of my other kids got this slack jawed wide eyed look on his face and he urgently passes me a note that the punk just threatened me by alluding to the brother. I instantly turned to the punk and told him, he should consider his brother lucky. He asked "WHY?" and I replied that had he tried that stuff on me or any of my friends, he wouldn't be in jail....he'd be in the ground. They've all seen the pics and video of me and my IDPA shooting club in competition. He remembered and got real quiet. In fact, he was quiet the rest of the period.