[black knife]

How many people who only carry a knife for self protection train to use it against multiple unarmed assailants? How many believe it is justifiable to do so?

As we know there is no such thing as a fair fight anymore. If you get into an altercation with someone and he or she is not alone then you can assume that you will have to fight them all.

As a former LEO I have seen firsthand what types of injuries a person can sustain from being jumped by several assailants. Some victims have even died from their injuries.

 

[Bm7b5]

There are times when I only carry knives for self defense. I have had formal training that included multiple attacker scenarios.

To whether multiple attackers justifies lethal force, the answer is "it depends." It may, it may not. As in all situations, my personal framework for using deadly force requires that the following four elements exist:

-The attacker(s) are physically capable of using deadly force.
-The attacker(s) must have the opportunity to use deadly force.
-A deadly force attack must be imminent.
-I have precluded all other options.

Certainly multiple attackers usually fits into the disparity of force category, so that usually means capability is present. But the other three elements must also exist.

 

[armbreaker]

u are so right black knife but u wont find many people that train for that situation. i come from a neiborhood where that happened alot. So i do keep in mind that it could happen and try to prepare as best i can.Any tips?

 

[black knife]

u are so right black knife but u wont find many people that train for that situation. i come from a neiborhood where that happened alot. So i do keep in mind that it could happen and try to prepare as best i can.Any tips?

With knife training you will need partners that are into knife defense as well....I suggest putting a knife training group together. This makes knife training easier and more fun. Solo training is hard and boring.

For multiple assaillant training, I practice defending against the strikes, i.e. punches/ kicks and grabs using the knife.

I use a parry /slash combo then I can go into a thrust or slash finish. For instance lets say a guy throws a right cross to my face. I will parry the strike to my right side with my left hand then I immediately downward slash his wrist or forearm. I can then do a check and go for a thrust to the throat or belly. Then I will move behind the guy and use him as a shield and see what the next guy will do.

For drills I start off with a single attack drill first then I go into double attack drills where two guys attack. You will eventually go against three or four guys as you progress in your training. In my class I wil have three or four guys put on boxing gloves. They will attack the student that is armed with a training knife. The armed student's goal is to avoid getting hit at the same time he is cutting and slashing the students playing the bad guys. The idea is to keep moving to avoid getting hit and grabbed while you are slashing and thrusting. If you have anymore questions...e-mail me.

 

[Bm7b5]

Black Knife, those are some good training tips. In general, in multiple attacker scenarios, the defender wants to turn the encounter into into several, short, 1 on 1 fights instead of trying to fight everyone at once (defender has very bad odds going against everyone at the same time no matter what weapon he has).

If the defender can initiate a short, ultra-violent, deadly, and explosive attack against one of the attackers, it is highly likely to strip the will to fight from the other attackers.

And using your first target as a shield against the other attackers is a great technique.

You should also include verbal commands in your training "STOP! YOU'RE CUT, YOU'RE CUT" and be looking for a way to get the hell out of Dodge.

 

[Saber]

A knife fight for me? Oh hell no! I still have a scar on the top of my right hand from the last one I got into back in 1975. I was a LEO assisting DEA in a raid that went south in a hurry. As it turns out, getting sliced with a knife really hurts! I would rather go with option ‘C’ than ever doing that again! BTW: Option ‘A’ is to run and Option ‘B’ is to run faster. Footnote: I have a condition whereby I can’t run. Oops! Almost forgot the question... Yes, I have a fancy Microtech auto-blade (best in my opinion) that I use to open the mail.

 

[black knife]

Black Knife, those are some good training tips. In general, in multiple attacker scenarios, the defender wants to turn the encounter into into several, short, 1 on 1 fights instead of trying to fight everyone at once (defender has very bad odds going against everyone at the same time no matter what weapon he has).

If the defender can initiate a short, ultra-violent, deadly, and explosive attack against one of the attackers, it is highly likely to strip the will to fight from the other attackers.

And using your first target as a shield against the other attackers is a great technique.

You should also include verbal commands in your training "STOP! YOU'RE CUT, YOU'RE CUT" and be looking for a way to get the hell out of Dodge.

Yeah I figure that once the other knuckle heads see their buddy's guts hanging out they would probably stop their attack and take off.....everybody has cut themselves at least once in their life time...so they know how it feels. I think that is why it has a psychological affect on people when they see a knife in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.

 

[KevinInstructor]

With knife training you will need partners that are into knife defense as well....I suggest putting a knife training group together. This makes knife training easier and more fun. Solo training is hard and boring.

For multiple assaillant training, I practice defending against the strikes, i.e. punches/ kicks and grabs using the knife.

I use a parry /slash combo then I can go into a thrust or slash finish. For instance lets say a guy throws a right cross to my face. I will parry the strike to my right side with my left hand then I immediately downward slash his wrist or forearm. I can then do a check and go for a thrust to the throat or belly. Then I will move behind the guy and use him as a shield and see what the next guy will do.

For drills I start off with a single attack drill first then I go into double attack drills where two guys attack. You will eventually go against three or four guys as you progress in your training. In my class I wil have three or four guys put on boxing gloves. They will attack the student that is armed with a training knife. The armed student's goal is to avoid getting hit at the same time he is cutting and slashing the students playing the bad guys. The idea is to keep moving to avoid getting hit and grabbed while you are slashing and thrusting. If you have anymore questions...e-mail me.

Great advice!!!

 

[KevinInstructor]

I think it is a good idea to train with any weapon you carry for self-defense for multiple attackers, as many will have backups. My students are exposed to the idea that there could be multiple attackers but are not indoctrinated into working against multiple attackers until they have a good grasp of the basics down. Since I have limited accessibility to red men suits there have been times when students have left practice sessions against multiple attackers fairly bruised from these simulations.

 

[black knife]

Great advice!!!

Thanks....my students appreciate the realistic approach to my teaching.

 

[Jim Macklin]

take a number

Knife Defense against multiple opponents! , is not like a Hollywood movie with everybody waiting their turn to attack.
You are defending yourself because they are bad people. They will not wait for you to get around to them.

Years ago, a martial arts master selected several strangers from the audience at the Illinois State Fair to demonstrate sword fighting.
These farm boys put him in the hospital with the wooden swords they were all using because they all came at once.

The best defense is a gun and 21 foot distance. The next might be to be an fast runner.

The greatest defense is to avoid the whole thing.

 

[Bm7b5]

Knife Defense against multiple opponents! , is not like a Hollywood movie with everybody waiting their turn to attack.
You are defending yourself because they are bad people. They will not wait for you to get around to them.

Years ago, a martial arts master selected several strangers from the audience at the Illinois State Fair to demonstrate sword fighting.
These farm boys put him in the hospital with the wooden swords they were all using because they all came at once.

The best defense is a gun and 21 foot distance. The next might be to be an fast runner.

The greatest defense is to avoid the whole thing.

Completely misses OPs question, which was: IF your only SD tool is a knife, DO you practice multiple attacker defense techniques? Saying that a gun is a better tool, or that you should run if you have the option, or avoid the whole thing, has nothing to do with the conversation.

 

[JD]

Knife Defense against multiple opponents! , is not like a Hollywood movie with everybody waiting their turn to attack.
You are defending yourself because they are bad people. They will not wait for you to get around to them.

Years ago, a martial arts master selected several strangers from the audience at the Illinois State Fair to demonstrate sword fighting.
These farm boys put him in the hospital with the wooden swords they were all using because they all came at once.

The best defense is a gun and 21 foot distance. The next might be to be an fast runner.

The greatest defense is to avoid the whole thing.

Keep it on topic.

No where in this thread is anyone talking about taking on multiple attackers armed with knives. The OP is addressing YOU being armed with the knife against multiple attackers which are UNARMED.

Further more, while 21 feet of space and a gun is a nice thing to have, it would be a luxury in most cases and most altercations happen well within that 21 feet. Train for the worst, hope for the best. :bier:

 

[psychophipps]

The reality that I have run into is that you're pretty much stuck dealing with them one at a time regardless. It's cool to see Jet Li do splits kicks and the like but we'll all be stuck with one guy at a time unless things go into The Danger Zone. Of course, "The danger Zone" means that you're getting struck by multiple opponents with whatever they have handy and you're still dealing with them one at a time. Yay? :hand10:

Multiple opponents is all about footwork, knowing how groups move, and (hopefully) forcing them to come at you from a single direction at once. If you're getting multiples in an open area who know what they're doing, it's very likely going to be your ass.

My advice is pretty simple. Charge one of the attackers and do as much damage and shoving him away from his buddy(ies) as you can before his buddy(ies) get(s) on top of you. Once the first is hopefully hurt enough to at least be slowed down, go on to number two as fast and hard as possible. Repeat as necessary as long as you can, until they decide that there are greener pastures elsewhere, or you somehow get away.

 

[Eagleks]

If there are mutiple attackers, I have more mags available on my hip.

Personal opinion and experience, you don't want to get into a situation with fighting mutiple attackers with a knife. Usually, once 1 or 2 are shot, the others will flee.

How many people who only carry a knife for self protection train to use it against multiple unarmed assailants? How many believe it is justifiable to do so?

Personal opinion, you don't want to have mutiple attackers and all you have is a knife. I was trained in some weapons in martial arts and was fairly good with them, and some key words are..... fight to escape. That's the only way to win in that type of fight, to escape in one piece. Otherwise, if they want to get you... they will. Also, minimize the space that they have to get to you... i.e. narrow hallway, etc.

 

[mercop]

My thoughts-

Any monkey with a knife in his hand will likely be able to cut one or two attackers off of him with little effort.

The problem is when and how to get the knife out. Deployment is the key in using any tool for self-defense. Everyone sees himself or herself as a good guy; even bad guys think they are the good guys. Two scenarios-

I think we all assume everyone is armed, even if we cannot see a weapon. So three guys with no visible weapon approach you, you know it is a robbery. At what point do you draw your knife? Before you they are close? What if they pull a gun in response? At this distance the gun wins. Often criminals will not display a weapon if they can avoid it, why take an armed robbery charge why you don't need to.

Scenario 2- they are either closing in on you or have already made physical contact. Where is your knife? Have you trained to create the space needed to deploy it from the bottom of a dog pile? If your arm is pinned extended against you body or held closed have you trained for that? Do you have a tool on your reaction side as well?

Since MCS concentrates on open hand, stick, knife, and gun within seven yards these types of situations come up in force on force drills all the time.

People talk about so and so being good with a knife. Good with a knife once it is in their hand. The majority of people who kill and injure with edged weapons have no formal training. What they have is the element of offensive surprise and force of violence.

It would make as much sense to say that someone who is good at shoot a pistol is good at defending against a pistol.

We get people from all kinds of backgrounds from novices to masters and gurus. All that stylized stuff goes out the window once you get punched in the face or your head is slammed against the wall.

You are about 100 times more likely to have to defend against an edged weapon you won't see than use an edged weapon of your own to defend yourself. This truth does not fill dojos that are why it is all but ignored.

Our two-day Edged Weapon Course is as follow-
Day I- Spontaneous Attack Survival against Edged Weapons- this is our open hand combatives course. We train against the weapons you can't see instead of just teaching open hand combatives. When you train against edged weapons there is no room for error, this makes your skill set more reliable.

Day 2- Inverted Edge Tactics, this is our answer to the OP's question. The idea of the course is to teach you how to deploy any blade from under a dog pile by using yours and your attackers anatomy to cut your way up and out. We teach to fight like a cat, which fights to get away. Instead of a dog who fights to win.

As far as the posters who always pipe in here about not bringing a knife to a gunfight. We teach that to. People without training also fail miserably when trying to get their gun out after or during physical contact. During force on force wearing headgear and using airsoft we have found that once you get rocked in face you loose your concentration in reference to getting your gun out.

What is more likely that a punch in the face? How about falling backward and smacking your head. Have you practiced drawing your pistol from the ground? How about retaining it when your jacket flies back and the bad guy sees it and thinking he is the good guy goes for it?

This is not a game with rules. It is chaos without rules. If you train with rules chance are you will not fair well, especially if you make up the rules. - George

 

[black knife]

My thoughts-

Any monkey with a knife in his hand will likely be able to cut one or two attackers off of him with little effort.

The problem is when and how to get the knife out. Deployment is the key in using any tool for self-defense. Everyone sees himself or herself as a good guy; even bad guys think they are the good guys. Two scenarios-

I think we all assume everyone is armed, even if we cannot see a weapon. So three guys with no visible weapon approach you, you know it is a robbery. At what point do you draw your knife? Before you they are close? What if they pull a gun in response? At this distance the gun wins. Often criminals will not display a weapon if they can avoid it, why take an armed robbery charge why you don't need to.

Scenario 2- they are either closing in on you or have already made physical contact. Where is your knife? Have you trained to create the space needed to deploy it from the bottom of a dog pile? If your arm is pinned extended against you body or held closed have you trained for that? Do you have a tool on your reaction side as well?

Since MCS concentrates on open hand, stick, knife, and gun within seven yards these types of situations come up in force on force drills all the time.

People talk about so and so being good with a knife. Good with a knife once it is in their hand. The majority of people who kill and injure with edged weapons have no formal training. What they have is the element of offensive surprise and force of violence.

It would make as much sense to say that someone who is good at shoot a pistol is good at defending against a pistol.

We get people from all kinds of backgrounds from novices to masters and gurus. All that stylized stuff goes out the window once you get punched in the face or your head is slammed against the wall.

You are about 100 times more likely to have to defend against an edged weapon you won't see than use an edged weapon of your own to defend yourself. This truth does not fill dojos that are why it is all but ignored.

Our two-day Edged Weapon Course is as follow-
Day I- Spontaneous Attack Survival against Edged Weapons- this is our open hand combatives course. We train against the weapons you can't see instead of just teaching open hand combatives. When you train against edged weapons there is no room for error, this makes your skill set more reliable.

Day 2- Inverted Edge Tactics, this is our answer to the OP's question. The idea of the course is to teach you how to deploy any blade from under a dog pile by using yours and your attackers anatomy to cut your way up and out. We teach to fight like a cat, which fights to get away. Instead of a dog who fights to win.

As far as the posters who always pipe in here about not bringing a knife to a gunfight. We teach that to. People without training also fail miserably when trying to get their gun out after or during physical contact. During force on force wearing headgear and using airsoft we have found that once you get rocked in face you loose your concentration in reference to getting your gun out.

What is more likely that a punch in the face? How about falling backward and smacking your head. Have you practiced drawing your pistol from the ground? How about retaining it when your jacket flies back and the bad guy sees it and thinking he is the good guy goes for it?

This is not a game with rules. It is chaos without rules. If you train with rules chance are you will not fair well, especially if you make up the rules. - George

This sounds like an advertisement

 

[Hopyard]

re:black knife

This sounds like an advertisement

Yeah, but Mercop makes such good sense most of the time I almost feel like getting out my checkbook.

Same for you black knife. Love reading your posts.

 

[Orance Fine]

A friend of mine was privileged to train privately under Guro Felix Valencia (see: "Masters of the Blade") for the five years it took to be awarded full Guro rank in the Valencia Lameco Knife System. I asked him the question posed by Black Knife. His answer was was as follows(paraphrased): "Nobody successfully fights multiple opponents, either with a blade or a gun. One fights serial opponents. First one, then the next, then the third, etc." Personally, I'd never thought of it quite like that, before.

 

[mercop]

black knife, since I teach it for a living and make no secret about that I guess it is an advertisement.